Finding my first troller

A forum for people who are new to commercial fishing and for talking about the fundamental rules and regulations.
Nola May
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Finding my first troller

Post by Nola May »

Hello,

I'm new here to the forum and new to salmon fishing. To date I've only put salmon in the boat sport fishing, however I do fish dungeness crab commercially off my little 25' Skipjack out of the SF Bay. I've read through a number of posts and threads here and I'm very impressed with the the level of knowledge and experience as well as the level of sharing amongst trollers. I hope at some point I can have something worth wild to share as well. In the meantime I'm starting to really chomp at the bit to get into the commercial salmon fishery down here in California. I'd like to purchase a boat with a salmon permit already on it to avoid the cumbersome permit transfer process and have a vessel I could also transfer my crab permit to (max permit length is 30'6"). Not surprisingly I don't have allot of funds to make this step so I've been looking far and wide for a boat that could start me off in the fishery. I've seen a boat posted locally on craigslist and now on a brokerage site that might be right for me given where I'm starting from. I was hoping to get some input from the many wise and seasoned fishermen here in hopes that I can avoid any potential pitfalls as I move forward. Let me be clear that I am not asking for any in depth knowledge, I completely understand and respect that the only way I'll get to that level is to put the time in one the water myself. My crab knowledge is all from just doing it and doing the best I can to learn from my own mistakes, I know salmon trolling will be much the same. What I was hoping for is some thoughts on wither the boat I'm looking at now is worth moving on, i.e. should I run a way from a boat like this or are possibilities with it. Any and all input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance for your assistance and I look forward to becoming a productive, responsible member of this community.

Here is the boat I'm looking at: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/boa/3412427492.html

-Will
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Re: Finding my first troller

Post by Abundance »

I doubt that you could choose a better boat to start out on. That is one slick looking little vessel. I think you can get the hang of this business quickly enough, and that boat would ride easy and make take care of a lot of problems for you. I think that your crabbing experience will be of some considerable help to you. I have not crabbed myself, but I do pot shrimp fish and I can say that the skills and training that it gives you about hydraulics and general water knowledge translates very well. Welcome to the business, if not now than likely later.
Garrett Hagen, F/V Abundance
FV_Wild_Card
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Re: Finding my first troller

Post by FV_Wild_Card »

No. This boat has wood issues, look closely at the pictures, beware a shiny new paint job. There's no hold, it has been turned into living quarters, WTF. There's no deck space and it's made out of wood, that sucks for crabbing and anything else, big time. Don't go with wood if you can help it, too much maintenance and BS. This is a live aboard, you need something currently fishing. The only selling point is the 600 hr engine (maybe, who knows who/how rebuilt it). Looks like a mistake to me. The goal should be a turn key platform that you can use to turn and burn, upgrade out of quickly and make as much money as possible in the shortest amount of time with the least amount of effing around. You're crab will most likely be your bread and butter, get a platform to accomodate that fishery. Dude, stay away from this one, it's gonna take too much to get it fishing and even then it's gonna be a money pit and a hassle. You have been warned.
Carol W
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Re: Finding my first troller

Post by Carol W »

I agree no this boat is too small. I started my carreer on a 12 foot skiff when I was 13 and worked my way up through several boats, and now own a 42 footer. The Ocean is a big place that can get real crappy real fast, it helps enormously to have a boat that can handle the crap when the fish are biting, I have learned over time when the ocean is sending little boats like this to harbor is when the fish bite. The other really important thing is there isn't any hold capacity and it appears as if the hold has been turned into a cabin. And lastly once you learn how to fish and are ready to move to a bigger boat you won't be able to sell this boat. The last piece of advice I can give any serious young troller is don't mess around go into debt and buy a big fiberglass or steel troller that you can use in several fisheries and it would be the best move to get a boat that has freezing capabilities, forget lifestyle think business.
FV_Wild_Card
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Re: Finding my first troller

Post by FV_Wild_Card »

Carol W wrote: forget lifestyle think business.
Exactly. I found the ad for this boat. It was built in the roaring 20s. Oh hell no!

Save your money, watch the market and wait for the right deal.
Abundance
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Re: Finding my first troller

Post by Abundance »

What kind of fishing are you planning? Is the boat someplace where you can check it out in person? I think that boat would take seas quite well personally. The lack of fishold is not so bad if day tripping, which is all you could do in a little boat anyway. Your crab permit is only for an up to thirty foot vessel, you need to keep in mind. Crabbing is a much more stable fishery and should be your focus until you get established trolling. It would not be ideal, but I cannot recommend going into debt for a big momma vessel and the highest value permit. I know people who have lost everything they owned and had to start over with less than they had before. Waiting for deals is a good idea, but you need something to use in the meantime. I believe in the "starter boat" concept. Trolling is not for everyone. You might realize that a job with insurance is a better life option several years from now. A small fiberglass or aluminum boat shouldn't be too expensive, but sometimes you can afford a $10,000 boat, not a $15-25,000 boat, no matter how good a deal that is.
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Nola May
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Re: Finding my first troller

Post by Nola May »

Thank you for all the input. The bottom line is that I don’t have any perfect scenarios. The 30 foot limitation on my crab permit is the biggest challenge, I purchased it before I understood much about the industry but that’s how it goes and that’s where I’m at. Crabbing is indeed what will bring me the consistent revenue. I do fortunately have a “regular” land based job - with benefits – that keeps my family afloat. I have two young daughters, a mortgage, car payment etc. so the “regular” job is not going away anytime soon.

I’m a day fisherman. For the past two years I’ve held onto my vacation days till the end of the years so I’ve been able to get in on the crab season for a couple of intense weeks then I run my gear on the weekends and take the occasional day off of work as I have an employer who is into what a I’m doing and gives me some flexibility.

And yes, it’s about business not lifestyle. I love being on the water but without generating revenue I can’t make it work, covering my costs and putting a little something extra in the family coffer has been my goal and luckily that’s what we’ve been able to do. Our strategy has been to sell directly to restaurants and retail customers to get around the large processors that seem to dominate that market. We can get by with a small catch when we are getting 2x or better what is being offered by the processors. It’s been a successful model to date and something we believe we can grow significantly as our major challenge has been meeting demand, whereas tapping a high dollar retail market has not been a problem. Consumers these days want to know who caught their food and where it came from, we satisfy both those issues and have begun to develop a loyal customer base.

As for this 30 Monterey, I’ve actually taken a look at it already, next step would be to get a pre purchase survey done. The current owner has never fished it, he purchased it about ten years ago and has used it to putt around the bay and entertain friends but he appears to have done regular maintenance and he’s kept up the permit and has kept the salmon gear aboard. I was surprised by how stable it felt and surprisingly the amount of deck space I could use (remember that I’m currently fishing from a 25’ sport boat with a small deck and a doghouse in the way). My two biggest concerns about this boat are 1. That it’s wood. Maintaining a wood boat scares me and I agree it would not be an easy boat to resell. The other issue is speed. Going out under the golden gate, where currents of 4-5 kts are not uncommon, I fear day trolling and crabbing could be a challenge if I can only get a couple knots against a stiff tide. On the question of hold, it is a concern but there is plenty of space below to fit a couple of half totes or even possibly put a couple topside.

There are additional issue I have with this boat such as the lack of a working autopilot, no crab gear, etc. but what drives me to this vessel is the salmon permit, the fact that it would be considerable more stable than my current boat and of course the price. I know that what I really need is to spend $80k or so and get a 32-36’ crabber/troller with a good power plant, full cabin, wide beam, all the salmon & crab gear, a large hold, quality electronics etc. but that’s just not in the cards so I’m trying to make the best decision I can given my limitations: namely funds and the 30’ max length of my crab permit. While part of me thinks that I should just sit and wait, I’ve also been following the market for commercial boats here locally for some time and a permitted vessel at this price just doesn’t come along very often.

So that’s where I’m at. All your input is greatly appreciated and I know that whatever direction I end up going in I’ll be on the water for many years to come. I’m hooked on it, my family supports it and I do see that the economic potential is there to justify the headaches that come with the endeavor.
Drew
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Re: Finding my first troller

Post by Drew »

I see a lot more boats for sale in Oregon, than in California. I'd look there. There are sometimes some pretty good looking deals.
JYDPDX
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Re: Finding my first troller

Post by JYDPDX »

No offense to Oregon Fishermen but the boats in oregon are a sad lot. I saw one in newport that was in decent shape. cant remember the name, 36-38 foot double ender, the guy'd probably give it away for a song, other than that, it is really hard times. I went to every town from Newport to Astoria and didnt find anything for trolling. Maybe saw a couple of boats that were ok the entire way, but not for sale. I had better luck in california. This was last winter and I went everywhere.

Suggestion: if you're looking in random harbors, knock on the door of every boat you are interested in, even if not for sale. Even if the owner doesnt want to sell it, they may know of one similar for sale. California was more prosperous than OR last year but not by much.

That little boat might be fine. Or it could be a money pit. I'd get something bigger, myself.
Nola May
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Re: Finding my first troller

Post by Nola May »

I've seen some decent boats in Oregon, but not with California permits. I've seen a few CA permit out of Brookings but not many.
Drew
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Re: Finding my first troller

Post by Drew »

I bought my first troller last winter. The key is to be patient and constantly looking. Most of the boats on the market are crap, overpriced, or both. That's the reason that they are on the market and not sold. The good boats for good prices sell and disappear. Just keep your eyes open for opportunities. Don't believe that the list prices you see online and in the windows are what boats are actually selling for, they aren't.
Abundance
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Re: Finding my first troller

Post by Abundance »

I would say that your specifications narrow the field down quite a bit. You know the water you will be fishing and the basic space and equipment requirements for your fisheries. 30' or less, ready to fish without major boatwork, with a salmon permit, able to do small time crabbing and, most of all, affordable, should make shopping quick work. You are the best judge of whether the boat is what you want. If you feel like your requirements can be better met by something else, than wait. If you think that you've found what you want, well, I wouldn't wait. Of course, I'm an impulsive idiot half the time, so you have to take that into account.
Garrett Hagen, F/V Abundance
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Re: Finding my first troller

Post by tketrol »

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Re: Finding my first troller

Post by tkbluefin »

The fiberglass Monterey style boats are very good. There was another one in Santa Cruz that was set up
very nice....the RoxSea. I'm not sure if they sold it yet.
Nola May
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Re: Finding my first troller

Post by Nola May »

it's a nice looking Monterey, good for salmon for sure but I don't think it would serve me well for crab. I've taken a different direction for salmon this season. I just purchased a salmon permit for my 25' Skipjack and I'm looking to get her on trailer so I can move up and down the central CA coast to get on the bite. Hopefully I can scratch out a few fish this year and by years end hopefully be able to invest in a larger boat suited for both salmon and crab. It's going to take me a little time to get my Skippy rigged up but I'll post pics once she's ready.
Abundance
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Re: Finding my first troller

Post by Abundance »

That sounds good. Start out small, with the boat you know and trust. Move up the ladder when or if you can or want too. Much safer than jumping into a debt you might not be able to repay. I look forward to seeing those pics!
Garrett Hagen, F/V Abundance
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Re: Finding my first troller

Post by Salty »

I started with a 19 foot Reinell and a hand troll permit. I still wish I could go 25 knots.

I caught 65 coho on rods one day and thought I might be in heaven.

Caught five kings one day on rods, one while I was sleeping on the roof anchored up, that averaged nearly 30 pounds dressed. I knew I was in heaven.

Good luck.
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Re: Finding my first troller

Post by Kelper »

Just to build a little bit on what what Salty said. I'm a "kelper", and use sport fishing gear to hand troll when my gurdies don't produce. I was inspired by Caldwell in "Salmon on My Mind".

25kts and a small boat can be a really effective way to fish. They also can be really limiting too.

Pros: You can go 25kts, and be able to check 20 spots a day when looking for a mess of fish. If fishing isn't happening, you be home drinking coffee with the wife in no time at all. You can mooch areas that trolling doesn't work. You can use light gear/downriggers in the winter. You can fish shallower and make much tighter turns. Drastically reduced maintenance costs. Less major costs. Less gear costs. Less competition for fish. Bigger average size for kings. A charter fleet that puts a bullseye on the hot bit, and is only there for the mornings. (you can clean em out before the first charter boat get there) You sell same day caught fish, which are of the highest quality.

Cons: Weather will keep you at the dock or off the hot bite. Limited fish holding ability. Ability to make a ton of money is gone. Ability to fish off the beach is gone. Ability to travel more than 30 or 40 miles is gone. If you live in a port with no May/June hatchery opening, you are screwed out of the treaty fish the bigger boats are catching in far off hatchery openings. Limited to 1 day trips unless you don't mind tenting it on the beach.

I'm sure I missed some. I've been shopping for a big boat. I keep hitting the calculator figuring out how many fish I'd have to catch to make a big boat worthwhile. It's a bunch.
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Re: Finding my first troller

Post by Salty »

The time to move up is when you start loading your boat before the bite stops and you are compromising production because your holding space is too small. Another thing to think about is moving up in equipment on your boat to optimize its potential before moving to another boat. For example: putting power gurdies and a power permit on your handtroller if possible. The problem with that is you can't use rods or downriggers. I wonder if you can license your boat both as a handtroller and power troller? Then you could use rods and downriggers in the winter, plus four lines in the summer on the big pink bite.

That might be the ultimate troller. PHT, 25 knots, 5,000 pound capacity, able to fish downriggers, rods, and four lines with power. Not all at the same time of course. Handtroll permits might go up in value.
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Re: Finding my first troller

Post by Kelper »

That's funny, I was thinking of similar things this morning when I went for my daily 3 hour troll.

Trolling isn't really set up for small HT boats to make decent money on kings, unless you happen to live in an area with lots of hatchery openings. In my experience, some of the best shallow water fishing for kings occur in May/June. The two months we can't fish. And then in early July a small 18-23' boat has to try to compete with a much larger PT fleet for kings in a short, derby style opening. I'm not sure where to find the statistics, but I'd be curious to see how many kings are landed by the PT fleet versus the HT fleet. And, in my opinion, both permits have a strong historical case for fishing. It's just that boats have gotten larger, some have added freezers, and quota gets gobbled up rather quickly not giving the skiff fishermen much of a chance at their fair share.

I know this would never pass...

But, I think most HT fisherman would opt out of the derby style opening in July. They'd take a May/June fishery, with a daily limit of like 7 kings, 14 in possession. No releasing O28 fish. All fishing inside the surf lines. Then we get shut down July 1st, and open up again for cohos in 10 days. Give us a quota, and if we meet it, we get shut down. If not, it gets rolled over to after the derby opener and we can continue to keep 7 kings a day until we meet our quota. That would keep a stream of very fresh fish hitting the market, and give the smaller HT guys a chance to catch more treaty kings. If something like that would pass, you'd see HT permits rise in value and dory fishing out of fuel efficient boats would become cool again. But, it'd take kings away from what the big power trollers could catch, so I doubt the idea would be met with much enthusiasm.
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