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Hull vs. line voltage

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Hull vs. line voltage

Postby Fishnpohl » Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:54 am

I'm trying to figure out the hull voltage voodoo. My hull is hotter (.740) than my wires(.630) is this backwards? I ordered a russle VIP box to pull my lines down to .550-.600 ish but with my hull hotter am I missing something?


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Re: Hull vs. line voltage

Postby Crawfish » Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:36 pm

I am by no means a pro on this but here is my data point. I want my natural hull potential higher by approximately 2 to 4 tenths than my natural line voltage. It's what seems to fish on my boat best. We have had some of our best days when messing around with the black box and forgetting to turn it on . You can fine tune your wire voltage by adjusting your lead break away length. If your boat is bonded and your gurdies are isolated your already ahead of the game unless of course you are wired for positive ground. It seems to me hull potential changes as your zinc's eat so you are always aiming at a moving target for differential. A lot of guys put a heavy amount of weight on voltage. Some of the top producers on the west coast I have personally known have bolted the gurdies down directly to the wood deck have absolutely no bonding and catch like there is no tomorrow. Then there are some that worry about ion trailings and do very well too.


Either way follow sound wiring principles and you will be good to go.
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Re: Hull vs. line voltage

Postby Fishnpohl » Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:51 pm

Thanks!! I'm isolated at the gurdys, new bonding, plates on hull with zinks. It will drive you loony taking with guys no one has the same ideas. Thanks for the reassurance.

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Re: Hull vs. line voltage

Postby curmudgeon » Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:07 pm

All this Malcolm Russell voodoo confuses me too. I don't get how ion trail can do much of anything... Maybe for albacore but we don't fish salmon right at the surface an I can't believe the ions from a hull can mix down to much over 5-fathome even in the rips. I'm sure my thinking is probably in error, I sure have a lot to learn, but can somebody please explain?
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Re: Hull vs. line voltage

Postby Fishnpohl » Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:58 am

Anyone want to share there hull and wire numbers? I can't see how haveing a hotter hull is right.... I would love to compare my numbers with other boats.

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Re: Hull vs. line voltage

Postby Drew » Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:13 pm

Hotter hull is the norm. For me at least. I'll post some numbers in a few minutes.

*edit

I got .660 for lines dragging 50 fathoms and .780 for my field. The deeper you are dragging the higher your line voltage will be.
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Re: Hull vs. line voltage

Postby Crawfish » Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:48 pm

Hull potential will vary as anodes eat and as the salinity of water changes . I have a hull potential range from .850 to .684 depending on both of the prior factors. Albacore is a whole other science with more variables from what I can tell. Natural hull potential difference is more important to me than the line voltage. We are really getting into a realm of fuzzy logic as all boats fish different in different conditions. Some boats fish well on the beach and can't buy a fish in the deep while others do fair but not supreme in both operating conditions. I focus more on clean bonding terminations, shaft brush , anchor winch , metal handrails and such than a particular number. I know it makes a difference and some of the high liners who have crew and a lot of time really try to tune it in. As long as I keep up with the consistent producers I try not to think about it. It gives me brain snakes and even more so when they are not biting for me. :D
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Re: Hull vs. line voltage

Postby Fishnpohl » Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:48 pm

Brain snakes thats great. Well I'm going to call it good on my numbers. I was geting sick to my stomach with my numbers. But seems that I'm in the relm. I found broke bonding in shaft ally so hoping that's part of my problem. Most likely it's no fish under my boat not my ion trail hahah
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Re: Hull vs. line voltage

Postby carojae » Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:52 pm

A current/electrical field needs two things. Negative and a positive. A anode and a cathode. A steel boat and a stainless steel trolling wire.
When you submerse these two things in salt water, (a electrolyte), you create voltage because one value will find the other and in effect, you have created a battery measured by millivolts - fish like this.

There are other variables: Mass will out do small i.e., a aluminum boat will turn a stainless steel bolt into a nice brown piece of rust when in theory this is not suppose to happen. A stainless steel shackle on your aluminum poles will turn the value of that shackle into a nice piece of brown rust - mass wins. So mass is a consideration when trying to create the perfect field around your boat. So.....

What does this mean? I don't know. haha It used to be that too much zinc on a boat was not good. In fact, if you caught anything, you would have a very angry fish, a tough fish and usually it would get away if it was a big king especially. Now, if you are sitting in a room full of trollers you'd get laughed out of the room because everyone has taken the belief that you need tons of zinc....I don't know. Some of the best trollers of the past have been big old wood boats. Why? I don't know.

Personally, my best boat for trolling was a wooden 34' double ender. It had a Chrysler Crown for power and a "positive ground" electrical system. While I thought at the time I was a god as a fisherman, it was actually the boat, I found out as time went by. And truthfully I don't know if the positive ground had anything to do with it.

So in conclusion, let me say that the mystery of why some boats fish and some don't is still a mystery to me in that I can't tell you why something will work. Everyone has had zinc problems before and that is when we become doubtful of our skills. Me especially when fish won't bite my hook.

I personally think if we can figure out what gold refiners know about refining metal, we'd all be good fisherman. They use this process called, "electrolytic refining" and it involves negative and positive charges submerged in a solution to transfer metal from one spot to the other and it becomes pure gold (if gold was the involved metal), or the purest known to man by man anyhow.

Anyway, this is my useless contribution to something I know a lot about, but can't seem to make it all work. Story of my life.
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Re: Hull vs. line voltage

Postby Crawfish » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:41 am

The way the potential voltage that our boat's either naturally or artificially induce may have more effect outside of just the electric current field.

The electric field produces a force proportional to the electric charge within the field. Electic force is in the direction of the electric field. Magnetic force is proportional to the electric charge and the speed of the charge. The magnetic force is perpendicular to both magnetic field and direction of motion. A charge sitting still will be affected by an electric field. It will not be affected by a magnetic field. A wire with current flowing through it will not be significantly affected by an electric field. The total charge in the wire is zero: same amount of positive and negative. Since only the negative charge is moving in the wire, it will be very much affected by a magnetic field.

Do magnetic and electric fields interact? YES! They interact according the the principles laid out in Maxwell's equations governing those fields.


So how can we apply this information to our trade? The scientific method could help us.

Define a question
Gather information and resources (observe)
Form an explanatory hypothesis
Test the hypothesis by performing an experiment and collecting data in a reproducible manner
Analyze the data
Interpret the data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypothesis.

But it's really hard because on a day to day basis we have similar but never the same testing parameters. What we do have is a moment in time with a given set of results to analyze and general trends to look at. I think controlling stray current and the leak of voltage is paramount to keep the weak hull potential field from collapsing whether it is electric , magnetic or a x - y axis of both.

Speaking of magnetic fields I have heard from multiple people that steel boats built with their keels facing East-West wont fish as well as the North- South built ones. Most ship yards orientate keels north south when laying up the hull. Weird hugh?

So in conclusion my personal opinion is it all boils down to Dark Matter and how you have it stored on your boat.

Just kidding. :D
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Re: Hull vs. line voltage

Postby Scotthmt » Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:11 am

I'm nt sure what help this is but my wires on port side are .1-.2 starboard forward spool is .1-.2 and rear spool is .5 to .69
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Re: Hull vs. line voltage

Postby Once and Future » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:43 pm

In my 20's, I went to trade school to learn the electrical trade. It was a good school that spent quite of bit of time on theory as they wanted us to know the "why" as well as the "how". I consider myself very well versed in electrical terms and theories. But I am not well versed on specific voltages and how they relate to catching fish. My goal here is to de-mystify some of the electrical theories. Everything I will state I can prove. (Unless I make a mistake someone wants to correct.) I will not state anything about what voltage will catch fish because I don’t know for a fact. (I do love it when guys say: “Here is what I found works for me” because that is an honest and helpful answer.) And here is one thing that I have learned: very many people who are electricians and power company lineman are competent at making safe electrical systems, yet are completely baffled by the concepts of “grounding” and “bonding”. They just know what rules to follow to get the job done.

1) Electrical current is the flow of electrons across atoms. This occurs because there is a surplus of electrons someplace that causes an imbalance that nature doesn’t like. If these electrons can find a path of low enough resistance, they will flow to their destination to neutralize the charge and make nature happy, unless something like a generator or battery continues to kick them in the ass and force them to keep moving.

2) If the electrons can’t find a path of low resistance, they stay “static” (not moving). This is what “voltage” is. This is also called “potential” for the obvious reason that this imbalance represents power that can potentially be released. The buildup of electrons which are not permitted to flow is also called a “charge”, which is always measured between two electrical reference points. You can never say something like “There is 12 volts at that point” unless you state what other point you are comparing it to, or it will lead to confusion.

3) If there is a current path between these points, but it is not perfect, some current can flow, but some level of voltage will be maintained, and we will have a functioning “circuit” that we can put to work. If, on the other hand, we make an excellent current path, say out of heavy copper wire, then the electrons will flow and neutralize the charge. This is called “bonding”. That is why we bond components together as our way of eliminating stray voltages.

4) Every time current flows, a magnetic field is created around and along the conductor. It may be very weak if only micro-amps are flowing. Conversely, moving a magnetic field in relation to a conductor will “induce” a voltage on it. Current will be caused to flow if there is a path for it.

5) Chemical energy is another way to produce electricity. This is what a battery is. Placing dissimilar metals in an electrolyte like saltwater creates a battery.

6) As a reference point, the ocean itself is at “earth ground potential”, or what we would call zero volts. Everything that has a different charge than the earth would have a numeric value, and be considered either positive or negative compared to mother earth (including ocean) because that is the largest mass of equal voltage that we have access to.
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Re: Hull vs. line voltage

Postby Once and Future » Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:54 am

Clarifications: When I said a voltage that had no current flow represented "static" electricity, that's true, but it is not exactly the same as the name we give to static electricity we collect from walking across the carpet.

Next, I am pretty sure we want our boat's system ground to be as close to earth ground as we can get it. That is, lowest possible volt difference between them. That would reduce stray voltage around our boat improving fishing, and minimize electrolysis. If somebody's hull or ground system was a little too "hot" they would have a different voltage from their wire to the boat's ground than they would from the wire to the ocean.

Now the goal is to eliminate confusion and sources for error when comparing setups. So I suggest overstating the obvious. That is to say if I am going to tell you what the voltage is on my wire, I would give a plus or minus sign in front of the voltage, and then say what point I measured that voltage in respect to. In other words, I would say where I was holding the other wire lead from the voltmeter. Somebody told me once what the standard reference point for that was, but I forgot.

One example of confusion is when someone writes a statement with the word "lead" in it, and I don't know if they mean their "lead" cannon ball, or the "lead" (pronounced like "leed") wire coming off their voltmeter.

So if you say you have .2 volts on your trolling wire, do you mean you have +.2 volts on your wire compared to your cannon ball? And is your cannon ball in the ocean, or in its holder on the rail? Is the holder isolated from the rail or not? Is it dry or splashed with salt water? If the cannon ball is in the water, is it deep or shallow? Because that would affect its contact with the water. And since stainless wire is not a perfect conductor, you could probably find different voltages on it. For example, if you were measuring your wire voltage compared to your boat ground, I would bet you could measure a different reading where the wire is wrapped on the spool compared to 2" above the ocean.

Finally, I want to talk about the magnetic field of steel boats. In books, they often draw parallel lines around a magnetic object to represent the magnetic field. These are a symbol for something real called magnetic lines of "flux". They taught us if you bring iron close to lines of flux, the lines of flux will bend and concentrate themselves to run through the iron. If you want to make an electromagnet, you run current through a wire. And you coil the wire up because the magnetic field will multiply its strength for each coil you add. Then if you really want to concentrate the magnetic field, you slip an iron bar into the hole in the middle of the coil. And your magnetic field will concentrate at each tip of the iron bar, right? SO, that tells me that a boat with a steel hull will concentrate its magnetic field in the steel hull. That makes me think the magnetic field of a steel boat would stay closer to the hull and be more concentrated. By comparison, it seems that fiberglass or wood boats would have a larger, but sparser magnetic field. So maybe a salmon could swim closer to a steel boat without sensing any magnetism, because it's all being held tightly to the boat?

Just think if you could be in a salmon's body for one day. How obvious everything would become!
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Re: Hull vs. line voltage

Postby Crawfish » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:06 am

From what I have seen it seems positive ground vessels have less voltage leakage just by nature of design. But hardly any one uses this wiring strategy anymore. It also seems to me the wood boats with the large single side band ground plates seem to fish better .

I just want to know why the guys who throw caution to the wind with loose hot wires in the bilge and line snaps that turn pink because their voltage is so hot can catch as well or better than a guy who has to have everything perfect for his boat to catch anything. It makes me think there may be more to this catching concept than just the potential differential we concentrate on. I think this whole voltage premise was developed by the Canadians with the integration of junk fishing. Maybe they know what's up.


Here is a good one. I know a guy who stripped his bottom paint off in the middle of the season because he was not catching well. He re painted with the "right" kind of bottom paint and smoked them for the rest of the season! I thought he was nuts but it worked. Not sure it had much to do with hull potential but it made me a believer of every thing makes a difference. One of the top producers told me blue colored bottom paint caught better on his boat than red or black. Where does it end?


Ideas?
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Re: Hull vs. line voltage

Postby Once and Future » Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:10 pm

I thought it was pretty well established some time ago that negative grounding led to less electrolysis. And the first captain I worked for was also an electrician. Russell black boxes were just coming out, and he was extremely leery of having gone to all the trouble to reduce electrolysis and stray voltage, only to use a black box to deliberately put a voltage on the wires that could lead to who knows what. It seems like when you force a voltage into the system you would pay by experiencing electrolysis somewhere.

I think some guys are successful at having the natural voltage on their wires be "just right" without switching on the black box.

I don't know if many of us rely on a solution like the single side band grounding plate mentioned above. Mostly, it seems we are just bonding keel coolers and all thru hulls together to create a grounding plate. The true grounding plate would appear to be better if the goal was to have 0.0v between the ocean and the boat's grounding system.

I don't remember about anodes and cathodes. That would tell you which direction electrons would be flowing if there were a stray voltage problem. Anyway, it seems there would be two sources of stray voltage on a boat. 1) Leakage from the charging circuit and 2) saltwater coating joints between dissimilar metals. If you ran a negative ground system, with perfect grounding contact to the ocean, then all leakage current coming off the charging circuit would be "positive" to the earth ground of the ocean. If you ran positive ground, the charging current leakage would be negative with respect to the ocean. Electrolysis voltage would be phantoms that I can't predict.

Does anybody know for sure if zincs behaved differently on positive grounded boats than negative grounded? And even old sailing vessels with no electricity had zincs, right?
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Re: Hull vs. line voltage

Postby Crawfish » Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:52 pm

"I thought it was pretty well established some time ago that negative grounding led to less electrolysis. " As far as electrolysis is concerned it may be more problematic. I am not sure.

Fishing wise -"Personally, my best boat for trolling was a wooden 34' double ender. It had a Chrysler Crown for power and a "positive ground" electrical system. While I thought at the time I was a god as a fisherman, it was actually the boat, I found out as time went by. And truthfully I don't know if the positive ground had anything to do with it."

I have heard this again and again. Never had a positive ground boat though so only here say.

Could it be plausible there would be less stray current outside the hull as it would be trying to complete the circuit back to the block or engine bed and would be less likely to interfere with line voltage as much since the path to least resistance is inside the hull not outside?

"It seems like when you force a voltage into the system you would pay by experiencing electrolysis somewhere."

I think the zinc's eat harder when you are inducing voltage. As the voltage eats the anodes, does resistance increase without cleaning the zinc or increasing voltage to get the same hull potential?

Is this why some guys I know put aluminum anodes on to keep resistance down for the voltage to eat them?

I wish I new more about this stuff.
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Re: Hull vs. line voltage

Postby Once and Future » Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:18 pm

I am unable to be fishing (damn it) and have too much time for the internet. Here is a link to two videos on one page. I only played the bottom one which has the explanations, and two things are pertinent. I never heard before that water is "diemagnetic", and I'm not sure if I spelled it right. Not sure of the different effect as to whether fresh water or salt. Plus the ions in water segment may be relevant.

http://cheezburger.com/64265729
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Re: Hull vs. line voltage

Postby elhewman » Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:45 pm

At this point nothing intimidates me more than this voltage talk. All I want to think about is finding salmon, and getting them to bite. I am depressed thinking that you can be fishy person and still not catch well because of the wrong line voltage. Nonetheless, I know its all true. :x
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Re: Hull vs. line voltage

Postby Once and Future » Sat Dec 27, 2014 3:42 pm

Elhewman: If you're feeling overwhelmed by voltage issues, I would point out that a lot of guys have done very well without getting to the point of turning a black box on. Three fundamental things that can be addressed: 1) Keep an eye out for obvious signs of leakage current, such as a wire with broken insulation contacting metal or bilge water. 2) Ensure you have a good bonding system between all metal on the boat, with the exception of isolating the gurdies. 3) Have a good strategy on zincs.

I think that some people hope the black box will be a shortcut to laying the foundation I mention above. I think that is asking too much of it.

The guy I bought my boat from was obviously meticulous with his bonding. I see copper jumpers everywhere. He also used more zincs than most people do, like double the amount. He had a reputation as someone who always caught his share of the fish. I am not in that category, but when I get on a bite, my boat does not seem to be a limiting factor. Anyway, he had a black box installed, but when they went to adjust it, they found the boat's "natural" voltage was "perfect". So the black box was turned off when I got it, and I have left it that way.

And this reminds me, I still want to run the voltage test someone on here carefully outlined, turn on the box and see what I learn.
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Re: Hull vs. line voltage

Postby elhewman » Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:12 pm

Thank you once and future. I am going to try the keep it simple stupid rule and make sure nothings causing problems in the wiring and zincs ect. Very informative post in which I will re-read plenty.
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