Pressure Bleeding

Discussion related to commercial salmon trolling, boats, gear, fishing techniques, electronics, marketing, etc.
Trnaround
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:56 pm
Spammer?: No

Re: Pressure Bleeding

Post by Trnaround »

Good discussion, getting the blood out is the name of the game, the fish should be gill bled as soon as it is landed then cleaned before the remaining blood has a chance to clot up too much. Pressure bleeding is way of getting a little more blood out. The salt water that is in the veins isn't enough to make a negative difference in taste or freezing, not much difference in salinity than the blood being displaced but the blood has a negative effect on freezing and taste as we know. If it is done poorly though there goes the quality you are trying to improve upon.When you are in a good bite having a good system of cleaning the fish that were landed first and not piling new fish on top of old fish makes a big difference. I think it takes the same or less time to clean a fish with slight pressure bleeding because there is less time spent scraping and getting those belly veins clean. Most critically how long does the fish sit until you get too it , how warm is it that day and how soon do you get the fish in ice. Sometimes it gets pretty busy.
Salty
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
Posts: 2399
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:46 pm

Re: Pressure Bleeding

Post by Salty »

I wish there was a like button on this thread. I would be pushing it all the time for posts. I completely agree with your post trnaroud. Well written, concise, right on.
yak2you2
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
Posts: 556
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:00 am
Location: Yakutat, Ak.

Re: Pressure Bleeding

Post by yak2you2 »

That is a good post Trnaround, but you left out a critical part. Time before delivery. To many guys lengthen out a trip longer than they should. Even on ice, the clock is ticking. 5 and 6 day trip fish aren't the same as day old fish, I don't care what anybody says. If more guys would commit to delivering every other day, it would improve quality tremendously. Sometimes it means bringing in a light load, or shortening your range, but it is what it is.
Abundance
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
Posts: 452
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:35 pm
Spammer?: No
Location: Craig

Re: Pressure Bleeding

Post by Abundance »

I have to say, yak, delivering every other day would make a lot of the best fishing grounds to remote to work. Making a reasonably short trip is vital, but getting them quickly chilled and deeply iced is just as important. Without a vastly enhanced tender system, two day trips are impossible for most of us here. We simply couldn't afford to leave sight of town, much less fish the rich Helm Point or Forrester Island grounds.
Garrett Hagen, F/V Abundance
JYDPDX
Member
Posts: 218
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:04 pm
Spammer?: No
Location: Sitka

Re: Pressure Bleeding

Post by JYDPDX »

Yak - again with your skiff perspective. The trick is to plan ahead and work with your tender on scheduling deliveries. I could pitch off a two day trip to a tender in my area and it might still be 4-5 days till it gets to the plant. Or I could coordinate my delivery and fish 5 days and get them to the plant on the 6th day. There is no difference between the fishing sitting on ice in my hold or sitting on ice in a tote. Other boats that have better insulation and can keep fish colder even than in tote ice on a tender waiting for the plant. Why would they pitch off every two days, it would reduce the quality of the fish and reduce their productivity?
yak2you2
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
Posts: 556
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:00 am
Location: Yakutat, Ak.

Re: Pressure Bleeding

Post by yak2you2 »

I know. I believe the vast majority do a really good job icing too. Odds are I would eat any one of those long trip fish and love it. But I've seen long trip fish, well iced ones, and they just aren't the same. Don't get me wrong, they're perfectly edible, and in resonable condition, but if were fleshing out ways to improve, this has to be considered. I hope nobody feels picked on, because thats not what I'm trying to do. As you say, we have to be able to reach remote spots. But maybe a better thought out tendering scheme? Or some other means of cutting the holding time down? My concern is this. If you have a busy year going on, 5-6 day fish get to the plant, run into a backlog, and wind up iced for another 3 days until they make it into the freezer. If we really want stand out product, we have to develop a means of cutting that down somehow.
yak2you2
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
Posts: 556
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:00 am
Location: Yakutat, Ak.

Re: Pressure Bleeding

Post by yak2you2 »

Havn't trolled out of a skiff for 10 years JYDPDX. You don't have to take personal offense to everything I say. Fresher is better, no one can argue that. I've gotten so spoiled, I don't even like them frozen. The way we do things is working, and the product is good, ok? I'm just wondering if we couldn't make it better? Freezer packers designated for remote areas?
Abundance
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
Posts: 452
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:35 pm
Spammer?: No
Location: Craig

Re: Pressure Bleeding

Post by Abundance »

One of the things that the chum fishery has done (I know, I know) is put a big cash infusion straight into the tender fleet. With ikura selling at about ninety dollars a kilo, (http://www.catalinaop.com/Frozen_Ikura_ ... oe_3b2.htm) keeping those round fish at the perfect temperature is a must. My favorite tender was recalled to Neets this year, and when delivering to him he told me that they had put some absurd 6 figure sum into getting the boat rigged with the necessarily goods. They put the fish into their heavily insulated hold, all species with RSW and ice. He even gave everybody RSW to chill their fish down faster and keep the slush colder. I don't know if this is normal or we have always been shorted on service out here. When this chum craze dies down, it would be nice to see if they keep those upgrades for the ocean fleet.
Garrett Hagen, F/V Abundance
yak2you2
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
Posts: 556
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:00 am
Location: Yakutat, Ak.

Re: Pressure Bleeding

Post by yak2you2 »

Take a look at the price difference between freezer trollers and icers, that, demostrates the difference freezing immediately makes. All I'm saying is, is it possible to find funds to refit packers that would help the ice fleet put out an EVEN better quality product, and get a better price. This would solve the logistic issue in remote places, then we work on shorter turn arounds on the guys closer to the plants. RSW has made a huge difference in lots of fish, the competition is steady making monumental changes in how they do things. Can't hurt to wonder if there isn't room for change in our fishery too.
Trnaround
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:56 pm
Spammer?: No

Re: Pressure Bleeding

Post by Trnaround »

Decisions, decisions, major part of the trip. God bless tenders. When do you unload?....When the tender is going by. Hard to stop fishing but sometimes they don't come on a regular basis so get rid of the fish when you can and go get some more (learned that the hard way, must put that on the what I learned thread). I envy the guys with Sat phones (not really) but they can stay in touch with the tenders which is a real advantage in deciding when and where to sell. You are right Yak getting them sold in good condition is another key thing in keeping up quality . Must go back to bleeding, though the difference between troll caught fish and gill net or seined fish is that we have the opportunity to improve the quality by bleeding. In the case of gill net or seine fish the blood stays in the fish and processing doesn't get it out. It would be nice to see improved tender service but more realistically learning to use the tenders the best you can is more likely to get the results you are looking for.
sven
Member
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:00 pm

Re: Pressure Bleeding

Post by sven »

Interesting thread. I pipette bleed and freeze every salmon onboard. Occasionally somone would leave the pipette in the fish too long or have the pressure too high and the result is the fish being "pumped up". Basically the flesh gets pressurized and rigid similar to a fish in rigor. This really bothered me because I figured the fish were bruised along the backbone and looked awful when filleted. One day we had a coho that was really badly "pumped up" so I filleted it immediately. It looked and felt fine... no bruising. We put it in the cooler and ate it for dinner. The fish was perfect. I guess a little salt water injection didn't hurt.

A while later we had another coho get really badly over pressurized. This time I froze the fish as I normally do. A few days later I brought it up and thawed and filleted it. The flesh along the backbone for about a 3" wide strip was complete mush. We ate that one for dinner also and the mush was less noticable after it was cooked, but still it was not up to the level of quality that we're shooting for.

The conclusion is that it is imperative to not over-pressurize the fish when pipette bleeding, especially when freezing them (most of our iced summer troll fish are frozen at the plants). I now "release" the few of our fish that are over-pressurized.

The flip side of the story is that I eat my properly bled and blast frozen salmon all winter long. It is unbelievable how perfect and fresh those fish are when you thaw them out even nearly a year after they have been caught. No "fish" odor, they smell like the ocean and not have a trace of blood. I am a firm believer in the process.

My guideline for pipette bleeding is: 1) that the pipette pressure is the same as the fish natural blood pressure. So it doesn't shoot out of the pipette further than what the blood squirts out of a fish when you cut the gill, and 2) you watch the blood come out of the fish and remove the pipette when it turns light pink or clear.

my 2 cents,
Jonathan
Abundance
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
Posts: 452
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:35 pm
Spammer?: No
Location: Craig

Re: Pressure Bleeding

Post by Abundance »

Thank you for the insight. I remember turning a coho into a balloon the first time I experimented with it. I probably ate it, but I cannot remember now. One thing that came of my families brief and ill fated attempt at direct marketing was our acquisition of a $4,000 industrial vacuum packer. We did up whole fish, fillets, steaks, whatever we thought people might buy. We still have the thing, and you can keep frozen fish for years after they have been vacuum packed in it without any real drop in quality.
Garrett Hagen, F/V Abundance
Kelper
Member
Posts: 278
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:04 am
Spammer?: No
Location: Craig

Re: Pressure Bleeding

Post by Kelper »

This is my experience, and feel free to tell me to shut up. I eat vacuum packed salmon, that has been troll dressed the traditional style 2x a week, for the last bunch of years.

Fishy taste comes from fat and excessive blood, when frozen. They key to any salmon tasting incredible out of the freezer is to follow these steps:

Take out of freezer
Thaw for 10-15 minutes
Take out of bag
Shave skin and fat off while still 98% frozen. Gloves keep the hands from burning on the rock hard fillet.
Bake, fry, whatever after the fillet thaws.

IF you thaw it in the bag, the fat/juices "marinate" in a fishy taste to the thawing product, as I believe fat goes "fishy" first in the freezer. Not good. If you thaw with fat/skin on, the fat juices seep into part of the fillet, and you get what you have. That kind of flies in the face of the fatty copper river marketing stuff, eh? Fresh fat is good though!

Following those simple instructions that a top chef at a lodge taught me, has kept meat eating year old salmon fillets. It's good stuff. I've never had traditional troll dressed fish taste fishy or be mushy when I followed the instructions above.

Another tip that I learned is to never, ever wash your fillets with fresh water, before freezing. Freshwater kills salmon. Only salt water, and limited amounts if I absolutely have to. I usually do not even wash a troll dressed salmon fillet before getting it vaccum packed, as their is no need if you dressed it properly. Water penetrates the flesh, and it does what it does when frozen. Expands and mushifies. (is that a word?)

Anyway, that's why I was asking about putting water into a fish.
Abundance
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
Posts: 452
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:35 pm
Spammer?: No
Location: Craig

Re: Pressure Bleeding

Post by Abundance »

Good advice, for a regular vacuum packer, which what almost all of us have around. I don't really know how our machine does it, but unless a pinbone pokes a whole in the bag we don't have to worry about the fat or anything. It quite different than the fish if eaten from a regular vacuum packer. On ours, you put the fish in a big pressure chamber, first pulling all of the gasses out of the fish ( you actually see air boiling out of the flesh), then lightning fast high pressure to force all of the air out of the package, then melting the bag shut to seal it. Its quite a handy tool, and we often lend it out to people, either in trade or just to be neighborly. Your more than welcome to try it out Joel, its kind of neat to watch do its thing.
Garrett Hagen, F/V Abundance
Salty
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
Posts: 2399
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:46 pm

Re: Pressure Bleeding

Post by Salty »

1) that the pipette pressure is the same as the fish natural blood pressure. So it doesn't shoot out of the pipette further than what the blood squirts out of a fish when you cut the gill,

Old man peeing.

I try to be honest on this thread, without saying everything. Frozen coho salmon is just fine, as is chum salmon. Both of these salmon are relatively dry compared to sockeye or Chinook. Kind of like a rose or Chablis compared to a Syrah or Merlot.
Truth is that after 6 decades of eating frozen king salmon I refuse to let anyone freeze king salmon for my consumption. We have a nice big vacuum sealer etc. but that is for guests who want to freeze their salmon. Frozen king salmon is just fine but it is not the same as fresh to me. Not to diss either frozen at sea or frozen fillets, or frozen headed and gutted at the plants. All good stuff if well handled and chilled immediately. And the way to get paid for your good handling is as Sven and some of my other young friends have done, freeze em at sea. But, there is a reason winter kings, which almost all are eaten fresh, go for up to more than $10.00 per pound.
I have eaten frozen kings from guys who froze it at 40 below and kept it there, I have eaten it from frozen fillets, and while a fine tasting salmon, it just doesn't have that extra rich sweet zing of a fresh one. If I am going to preserve and eat king salmon later we can it. Not the same as fresh but better than frozen to me. And then there is that slightly smoked white canned Chinook.
But then I live in Sitka and can pretty much go catch a fresh one any month of the year so I am spoiled. And my taste buds got fried a few years ago so what do I know. But I am getting hungry for a fresh one. Ate a whole can last night. In fact I think I will go catch one next week. That first fresh one of the year tastes so good.
If I was living somewhere down south and couldn't catch a fresh king or afford to buy one, which I probably couldn't, then I would choose a frozen troll caught king, coho, or chum, depending on price, and who caught it. Probably would mean choosing a frozen at sea from Sven.
carojae
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
Posts: 194
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:45 am

Re: Pressure Bleeding

Post by carojae »

I've never used anything but the deck hose (mine is 3/4").
After I've cut the fish and removed the guts and before I've scraped the blood out of the back, I cut a little incision in the blood line to the backbone nearest the gill plate and just hold the hose over that cut. The blood will start finding it's way out of veins and soon will turn to clear water.
From there I cut the remainder of the blood membrane and scrape out the rest of the blood. Rinse...
ZaneSOS
Member
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:05 am
Spammer?: No

Re: Pressure Bleeding

Post by ZaneSOS »

Value is in customer perception. I've long been bothered by the lack of compensation for quality, as well as the lack of quality in what I (or rather friends) bought in stores. I've been fishing various fisheries in S.E.A.K. for over 25 years. I now live in Portland OR, and still fish up there in the summers. I always had stuff in my freezer (even after being frozen for a year) that tasted better than anything I sampled from the random market. You all know this story. I've also seen soggy alligator fish bent in half in brailer bags. I'm telling this story because I am trying to change things a bit.
I am probably not allowed to give the name of my new business on here; I won't just in case. The information I want to give is this: I will begin buying pressure bled (PB) Sockeye salmon in the Juneau and Auke Bay, AK areas this summer. We may also have a buyer further north soon. I am beginning with gillnet caught fish, but intend to implement tiers, of which the troll-caught PB would be the top tier. I will be paying a premium for these fish because I have a growing customer base (American and Japanese markets are showing serious interest) that is ready to buy PB salmon based solely on my descriptions and passion about this. I very much want to give us a better price for these premium fish that represent the Wild Salmon industry so well. I will be a stickler about quality. You can always sell lower quality fish to the big processor, and high-grade the heck out of what you PB and slush for me. I do want fish that are within 3 days of catch, slushed not frozen. Run the water like an old man with prostate issues (slow as possible - avoid bursting the capillaries).
I assert that blood has a very strong flavor. When it is removed, only the delicate flavor of the fish remains. My customers are eager to try this in 2014. If things go as planned in 2014, the business will exponentiate. I will keep quality high by setting a capacity cap on each processing plant. The businesses will be set up to run independently, and I will be in charge of all quality control. There is a dramatic marketing strategy that I will not go into. I'm not trying to be self-indulgent. I just want you to know that change is in the air. If I can give you a fraction of the amount of confidence and optimism I feel about this, you will have a great day. I really hope this thing works. The thing is, so do my customers... Here's to the 2014 season!
Trnaround
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:56 pm
Spammer?: No

Re: Pressure Bleeding

Post by Trnaround »

ZaneSOS, Your plan sounds interesting. I am sure logistics and locations are some of your big issues right now among other details in setting up a stream lined supply line to the buyer. The concept of getting the highest quality pb fish to market sounds great. After reading the discussion above, why are you starting with gill net caught fish? Most gill net caught fish are not bled immediately (usually they are dead for quite awhile before landing) so it seems that pb is going to be less effective once the clotting has happened. Bleeding the fish immediately and getting them cleaned and iced right away is why troll fish are of higher quality not just pressure bleeding. Also gill net fish in SE are usually caught in terminal areas which means they are not prime ocean bright fish. Let me say this, I am not trying to be negative in any way on your approach but it would make sense to start with the best fish possible and that is usually closer to the ocean. Tapping in to the high quality troll catch is not a logistically easy thing to do because of the remote areas these fish are caught but that is where the best fish are going to come from. Anyway good luck with the endeavor and I am encouraged with the market you are developing. Oh and welcome to the forum. ;)
Salty
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
Posts: 2399
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:46 pm

Re: Pressure Bleeding

Post by Salty »

I think well handled gill-net fish can be good quality. And, I believe improving the quality of any of our Alaska salmon, from where we harvest it, to how we handle it raises the value for all of us. Ocean bright, individually handled, live bled, immediately chilled, processed as soon as possible is undoubtedly the best. But most of our Alaska salmon can not be harvested and handled this way. No way we could have caught all our salmon this year, or any year in the ocean, one at a time and bled them all.
I made a motion years ago on a salmon quality task force that we require immediate bleeding and chilling in all our Alaska salmon fisheries. Someone seconded it. The chair called an immediate recess and several top fisheries people explained to me that I needed to withdraw the motion. There was no way we could immediately live bleed or chill most of our salmon in Alaska. On the bleeding, a good percentage of gill net fish are already dead by the time they come over the rail. There is too much volume in seining to individually bleed every fish. In some seine sets in recent years you might have over 50,000 pinks in the seine at a time. Sets of over 10,000 pinks are relatively common now.
On the chilling, while we have made great progress since I made that motion, we still do not have the infrastructure in every salmon fishery in Alaska to provide the ice for immediate chilling for every fish. Take a look at the latest cover of National Fisherman magazine. There are a bunch of pink salmon on the deck. When I think immediate chilling, I am thinking within 5-10 minutes of the fish dying. Who knows how long these fish will lay on deck before being off loaded into a chilled tank on the tender. And, having seined for several years, they will still be fine quality. Not the same as an individually handled, live bled, immediately chilled troll caught pink, but still a great dining treat.
So, I withdrew the motion. Nevertheless we have made great advances in my fishing career on Alaska salmon handling throughout the state. In SE seine fisheries some of the companies require computerized records of the hold temps from the set through the time on the seiner, through the time on the tender, until processed. Every skippers delivery has a printout of his hold temps. Bill Webber, a gillnetter in Cordova is making great strides in setting up chilling and handling systems for his high quality direct marketed Copper River salmon. Quality testing on the effects of different brailer bag sizes, tender handling, etc. are providing important learning tools for Bristol Bay gillnetters.
After all these years I have decided there are several critical components to improving salmon quality:

1. The attitude of the fisherman;
2. The attidude of the processor;
3. Price incentives for quality;
4. Price penalties or product rejection for poor quality;
5. Consumer awareness and choices to pay more for better quality;
6. Trace-ability from the fisherman to the consumer like the "Thisfish" program.

Finally, Last night we got a nice package from one of my processors with a jar of smoked canned sockeye, and smoked canned king salmon. I had a gillnet friend over and we sampled the smoked canned sockeye and a can of smoked white king salmon from another processor. Undoubtedly, both were from gillnet caught fish. Both products looked and smelled great. We all agreed that the sockeye had a more appealing red color. On the taste test though the white king was preferred by all of us because it was less salty, much moister (melted in our mouths) and had a richer lighter flavor.

Then there is the home pack we have of canned troll caught white king. Mixing a little of the smoked white king with it makes an excellent base for a dip, sandwich spread, or a killer salmon loaf. Unfortunately I am often eating right out of the jar which gets me in trouble.

Merry Christmas to all.
ZaneSOS
Member
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:05 am
Spammer?: No

Re: Pressure Bleeding strategy

Post by ZaneSOS »

This is a great board! I really appreciate your help. If my vision is realized, I will have the pleasure of seeing you get representative pricing. I've been working on development for the last couple months. I'll answer questions I noticed, and probably ask a couple too.

First, cold logistics is a bear with titanium teeth. I am developing cold/fresh and frozen logistics plans. Lot of options, lots of prices. The trouble spot is small order shipping of frozen product. It looks like a FedEx or maybe UPS contract is the way to go. Luckily, I sell from Portland OR, which knocks a day off the shipping time from AK. I'm air freighting in to PDX for now. Input and ideas would be great on this, and on anything.

I'm targeting gillnetters as they are most accessible to me, and traditionally get a bit lower price. A better price is a stronger motivation there, as incremental changes are more magnified at that price point ($2.05/lb vs. $3.15 for example). The proposition is that if we pull nets frequently, more fish come out alive and can be PB and stored separately - no dirty brailers bending and descaling the fish while exposing it to bacteria. Totes are preferable in my experience, though I never close my mind. Fish that don't fit the quality benchmark go on down the old trail into the brailers with all the bacteria and other 'traditions'. Those would be any fish that are net-damaged or have begun to change, so, many of them. I am really interested in the best of the batches. When the fish first arrive they are at their peak, and then rapidly turn into alligators. The peak fish are desirable, and the only ones I'll buy. Total PB conversion of a gillnet boat would be a real feat of thinking and nature. I know that not every troll-caught fish is specimen, though a much higher percentage are.

I'm very interested in troll-caught fish as well. (I'm trying to track a guy down in fact; that's why I'm here today. Dave, you there?) I'm interested in all PB salmon. PB is the cornerstone of my value proposition to consumers. Some PB troll-caught is the benchmark of high quality.

I'm buying PB gillnet caught Sockeye and? this season out of Lynn Canal and Taku for three entities. I'm buying for a company that simply cannot meet the demand they have created, along with my company and another. The unlimited demand, self-branding opportunity, premium price and my inexpensive, ready-made kits to do PB, will be the incentives I offer to switch to PB.

I'm starting with a small number of boats, and will be boat-tracking the fish so the customer can go to my site and enter a number from their order. This will take them to a boat biography - the story of the boat. This (optional) boat-tracking is how a boat can build a brand/reputation. Eventually, a bidding system may be employed. This gives boats a chance to benefit financially from the strength of their brand (reputation).

Those are the fishing-end details of the matter.

I look forward to more great info, and send wishes for a spectacular season. It sounds like Spring in the Pacific Northwest is set to be a great start!

Zane Luther
Salt of the Sea...LLC
jskzl@yahoo.com for now
541-231-6835
Post Reply