Spread question

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Cfood
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Spread question

Post by Cfood »

Be curious how some guys feel about this. Spread is fishing and you start getting bites on a particular stop,spoon/hoochie. After, say 6-8-10 fish, its pretty clear that fish are showing a strong preference to a specific color/spoon/hooch. As you start to change out the non producing colors for the ones getting bit, the bite starts to slow and eventually dies. Do you A) re-stack the spread to the pattern you began with thinking the particular combo was effective, or B) stick with the spread with the stops that were hot earlier and hope the fish are just off the bite??
SalmonSeeker
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Re: Spread question

Post by SalmonSeeker »

Change one side at a time.
F/V Comanche
tunaddict
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Re: Spread question

Post by tunaddict »

Was it a tide bite? Did you get them to follow the spreads? Somebody, please tell me the answer. I need to catch more fish
Salty
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Re: Spread question

Post by Salty »

I have heard so much debate about this over the years that I am more confused than ever. I know some very productive trollers that fish the same stuff practically all the time. I talked to a guy last month who runs the same yellow spoons and Hootchies all year for kings and cohos. He doesn't fish chums.
Then I have worked with good producers who were always changing gear for all kinds of reasons and when they got the right combo for that day, that sky, that feed, that depth then they smoked most of us with the regular stuff. I have lucked into that situation a few times myself.
Then there are chums and pinks, the best biters, but also the most selective when trying to produce the large volumes of bites.
Trnaround
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Re: Spread question

Post by Trnaround »

Cfood, usually if I can see the fish have a preference I usually give them more of what they like. Definitely if I see a lure that isn't working at all I change it. I have ended up at times fishing all the same lures on all the spreads, and that can have a positive effect but then you need a lot of gear tied up to switch when the fish's preferences change. Someone was talking about brain worms, this would be one source. When they quit biting that is when they invade. Ha ha good luck out there.
JKD
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Re: Spread question

Post by JKD »

Cfood - This is just my own opinion, but in my experience I'm trying to change gear out WAY before I'm counting "6-8-10 fish" on a particular depth/gear combination. I always have a plan of what I want to start with each day and I try to have roughly a dozen or more of each bait, spoon, plug, or hoochie set-up at-the-ready to get the wires fishing/producing the same as quickly as possible. I'm paying close attention to a spread if it has produced "2 fish" - if you wait for higher numbers on particular combination(s) - the "bite" will usually be slowing-down [or completely over with] by the time you have the more productive combination spread-out along your wires. If you notice a particular spoon or hoochie producing ANYTHING start getting more of them in the water. If you are really fortunate, you can get a combination down quickly that will catch for you all day long (and especially in-between "bites" or "clatters"). This latter point was reinforced by a very productive troller who told me back in the 70s that "anybody can catch fish during a bite - it's the guys who catch fish in-between bites that have the best scores at the end of the day". As I recall, he had gulls following his boat all day long.

When I am prospecting in a new area or even starting-out the day on a known drag - I usually designate one of my heavies as my "test line" and I try my "next-best guess" gear on this wire. My heavies always catch a bit better than my floatbags so I assume that if I start catching on something on this wire - it will work elsewhere on the others. Good luck
Salty
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Re: Spread question

Post by Salty »

JKD,
Nice post. Been there, done that. Now I think ( not that it is the answer, just my evolution) that it is way more important to think about where the fish are, in the water column, on top of the humps or ridge, in the gulley, up current, down current, in which rip, and when, dusk, dawn, tide stage, they will be biting than what they are biting. And I am extremely into the hot lure.
In my later years the system of lures, the spacing, the combination of lures, bow poles or floats, or both, fleet dynamics, and loading dynamics (when to let fish on attract others or clean them off) and unloading, turnaround logistics are way more important than individual lures.
Then there is the whole spectrum of fisheries politics. I have caught way more salmon because of my fisheries/ conservation activism than I could ever have caught or will catch because of lure choices. In fact many of the hot lure and other fishing tips have come from helping people in fisheries politics.
Then there is the whole spectrum of fishing efficiencies like ergonomics and efficient high quality producing slush ice systems that have helped me catch and produce a high quality product..
So cfood, great question. But, as I look back, the time I spent on finding the right lure, often could have been better spent on more productive aspects of my trolling business.
Cfood
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Re: Spread question

Post by Cfood »

Very nice gentlemen. As we wrap up crab and look forward to the summer it was something stimulating the brain worms

I have likened some of the thought process to the approach Pro bass anglers have. Guys pre-fish a lake and find a pattern only to find the next morning they cant get a bite. How patient or impatient they are with what "worked yesterday" is what separates the top guys from the remainder.
Salty
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Re: Spread question

Post by Salty »

Right on cfood (nice handle by the way). One of my partners was #1 in the NW bass tournament standings and went to nationals years ago.
Living in the moment, this day, this tide, this tack is what it is all about. And many times the hunch or luck or Intel that leads you to the super day or trip is so outside a rational process that you end up believing in magic.
Trnaround
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Re: Spread question

Post by Trnaround »

Cfood, you are getting some great advice, like JKD says an organized approach will bring you more fish, and Salty's comments on the myriad of factors that can affect your numbers is right on. Which factors are the important ones that bring you more fish are learned over time. The more you fish the harder you work at it the more "the magic" happens. One point to emphasize is to learn the areas you fish. Every area fishes a little differently. If you are new to trolling start by picking an area that typically produces fish and get to know it well before you bounce to another unfamiliar spot. Watch what others are doing fit into the program catch your share of the fish.
Crawfish
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Re: Spread question

Post by Crawfish »

Salty wrote:JKD,
Nice post. Been there, done that. Now I think ( not that it is the answer, just my evolution) that it is way more important to think about where the fish are, in the water column, on top of the humps or ridge, in the gulley, up current, down current, in which rip, and when, dusk, dawn, tide stage, they will be biting than what they are biting. And I am extremely into the hot lure.
In my later years the system of lures, the spacing, the combination of lures, bow poles or floats, or both, fleet dynamics, and loading dynamics (when to let fish on attract others or clean them off) and unloading, turnaround logistics are way more important than individual lures.
Then there is the whole spectrum of fisheries politics. I have caught way more salmon because of my fisheries/ conservation activism than I could ever have caught or will catch because of lure choices. In fact many of the hot lure and other fishing tips have come from helping people in fisheries politics.
Then there is the whole spectrum of fishing efficiencies like ergonomics and efficient high quality producing slush ice systems that have helped me catch and produce a high quality product..
So cfood, great question. But, as I look back, the time I spent on finding the right lure, often could have been better spent on more productive aspects of my trolling business.
I agree with this and an emphasis of speed over ground in conjunction with line angles. Ever notice some people can make a broomstick catch fish? Normally there are multiple reasons why and often its not the lure selection or how the gear is stacked.
JKD
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Re: Spread question

Post by JKD »

I was answering (using my opinion based on my own experiences) the question that Cfood originally asked about changing-out gear. All of the additional points that have been brought up by others as important certainly are, and are normally already considered in my approach to fishing each and every day. However, I believe the importance of getting the "right" lure(s) down quickly is a basic requirement - otherwise how are you going to learn/know where the [biting] fish are at any given time in the water column, or where they may be in relation to the time of day, or how they may be positioned relative to the sub-surface terrain, currents, and feed where you are fishing. Catching fish answers each of those questions. I like to have those answers as quickly as possible.
Crawfish
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Re: Spread question

Post by Crawfish »

I used to think if I could only have the "right" gear I would catch more. I have learned over the years, awareness of nuances of fishing are just as important if not more than gear selection. It's hard to explain but when you have two boats fishing the same gear often one guy will have 10 fish and the other will have 43 fish. There is more there than meets the eye. The production difference comes to nuances combined because of a realized or unrealized awareness by the more successful fisherman.

It's like when you have a trip, or a season when you can do nothing wrong and just catch. Your in sync with the fish. Did your choice of gear change probably not unless you happened to stumble upon a revelation while in town " if you did please send me a pm" but rather your in the groove or picking up on little things that make your production more successful than other's.

My own experiences have shown me a lot of production is about personal attitude. I have never caught well when I was in a bad mood, it has always killed my fishing.

Is proper choice of gear important? Why of course but chances are if I can get bites on a 700 spoon, most days I bet you could do just as well on a Emerald 6/0 gold spoon.

Specifically speaking of gear selection anomalies there was a guy who hand painted all of his own spoons. He had some odd looking stuff, we could count on smoking him 4 to 1 on a normal trip. If he had 15 we would have a hundred for the day. We used what every one else used, purple haze and other standard stuff. But every once in a while we wouldn't catch on our gear and he would cream us with his odd ball crap. We would always laugh when he beat us because he would buy all of the junk out of the discount bin at Payless Drug strange looking Pucci and Sons hootchies no one else would touch . There was nothing we could do other than look on and enjoy the beating with a smile. Once he did well and he offered us some of his "secrets" he drew a blue tractor on Tom Mack #5's. He was a really nice guy and while he got us every now and then it was a good feeling to get beat by him.

Point being is when I go fishing I like to look at it as I am playing a game of odds, with that mentality I want the most production for my abilities. I will say I don't put random stuff out to figure out what they want, rather I try to use what has historically been the most productive and try to find biting fish. I am a firm believer if you start putting random stuff on a wire you can actually keep the fish from climbing the gear. When you do this you might scratch better but when they bite for real you lose out on volume.


The highliners I know and have known drag the same stuff whether they are biting or not. Should you change it up once in while? Maybe but most likely what you were using initially will keep working when you get back in the fish. Unless you were the guy who paints seagulls and octopus on your spoons. :D
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Re: Spread question

Post by Lulu »

Interesting conversation. I know a highliner who changes colors constantly and others who fish only purple haze. I was a firm believer that white will work all the time, I just needed to find the fish. Then the boat's production declined and I started changing everything. What I learned is color does matter, at least most of the sometime. And, the predominate color changes from year to year, but purple haze will always catch its fair share. So what I have done is start each trip with purple haze on one heavy and the same side float; usually the starboard side. I fish different colors that have history of catching on the other wires. I never mix colors on a wire. Generally, I will find a color catching better than the others, or one that doesn't catch at all, and then I'll start stacking the wires with the most productive hoochie. But, I will always have one wire with purple haze; sometimes that is the stbd side float just to keep them honest.

Color selection is based on what they're feeding on and water color; dark colors in dark water and light colors (yellow and/or lite green) in clear water.

I put a spoon above the deep and mid-water flashers because I've seen days when they'll only bite spoons. I run snooters which are all spoons and cover the top of the water column. Again, silver spoons in clear water, gold in dark, and painted spoons interchanged to keep the finny duds honest.

It's a system/protocol that I start every day which allows me to eliminate the non-productive gear and work on stuff that will work. As the season progresses, you get better at knowing what attracts the fish, but it is still a guess. A new batch of fish comes in that have been feeding on different critters, and they want something different than what you're dragging, and I have to start all over.

My biggest challenge is know when to make the change or at least start experimenting.

And the odd stuff, sometimes its the best. Last year I bought a color just because it was pretty (for God's shakes, what was I thinking). It turned out to be the best color for the year.

Point being, at least for me, establish a system to 1.) eliminate gear that doesn't work and 2.) maximize the gear that does.
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Re: Spread question

Post by Lulu »

I didn't touch on depth. I cover the short water with the snooters (silver on one side and gold on the other). I watch where on the wires (heavies and floats) the bites are catching. If the bottom spreads catch, I drop the wire another 10 fathoms. If they're on top and not on the bottom, I pull everything up. I try to keep the gear in the fish. Should mention I fish 2 fathom wire so I can stack as much gear in the targeted water column as possible.

With that said, in deep water, I know the fish will move up and down the water column as the day progresses. They will move on and off structure (a term used in the bass fishing community) as the tide changes. They'll move in and out if they're on the beach. The trick is to follow them as they move, if you can. Sometimes the options are too numerous so I just stay on the key structure (or depth) and hope they return with the next tide change. I try to stay in touch with boats above and below so I can tell if the fish are migrating in a certain direction, can't tell you how many nights I've ran to catch up or get ahead of a school. And, but not least, keep a mental note of what the birds and bait are doing; i.e. moving in/out or up/down.

I noted one post about being ready. I have enough of the key gear tied up and in the pit so I can change to one color on all wires if that's what they want. I don't want to be running back and forth to the cabin or tying gear as I go. That includes spoons, flashers, and leaders are all in the pit.

Another thought is speed. I like trolling fast (2.8-3.3 knots). But, there are times they like it slower and sometimes much slower; like 1.8- 2 knots. I keep a watch on the boats that seem to be catching, not about watching what they're using but how fast (or slow) they're trolling. Also, I'll make a few turns of at least 20 degrees to see if they hit the inside or outside wires better. If they hit the outside wire, I know to speed up, and slow down if they hit the inside wire. I keep the drag shuts at ready if I need to go slower; sometimes the wind, current, or tide won't let you troll as slow as you need.

When I've exhausted all the combinations of color, speed, structure, and water depth (and still not catching as well as others around) I start looking at the boat. Are the breakaways old and salt impregnated? Do the ganions need to be replaced? Is the shaft brush clean? Is the rudder post bonding wire clean? Are the leads dull and need to be scrubbed? etc, etc, etc.

Don't need to be the highliner. Just better than average every day. And, put the time on the water. Can't catch tied to the cleats.
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