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Outboard motor vs. inboard hydralics

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Outboard motor vs. inboard hydralics

Postby fish head » Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:05 am

Does anybody know , or know of a a electric hydralic pump to run my guiries ? I am wanting to put an outboard on my boat , does anybody have any info on this ? Thanks for the help. fish head
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Re: Outboard motor vs. inboard hydralics

Postby SilverT » Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:47 pm

I have heard of an electric hydraulic system used on a boat in Oregon. You might give Dennis Rush a call at (503) 741-0194 or (503) 861-1858. He has a lot of knowledge concerning gurdies and may be able to put you on the right track.

I run the 5.5hp honda hydraulic unit on the back of an outboard powered boat on a custom made bracket. I had a larger muffler built than the unit comes with and I installed a cover with sound insulation over the top. The noise level was not unpleasant and the unit had plenty of power.

My main concern with Electric motors was potential current leakage into the wires and boat. I suppose one could eliminate some of that possibility by using insulated spools, but it still makes me nervous. Best of success to you and let us know what you discover.
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Re: Outboard motor vs. inboard hydralics

Postby fish head » Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:14 am

i think i might use a pony motor like what your are using . Do you have a pics of your set up ?Thanks for the help and info .
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Re: Outboard motor vs. inboard hydralics

Postby SilverT » Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:26 pm

COMMERCIAL FISHING 09 012.JPG
Cover lid shown open
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COMMERCIAL FISHING 09 007.JPG
From the side, with cover. Note exhaust pipe out bottom
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COMMERCIAL FISHING 09 031.JPG
My brother gently eplaining something I may have overlooked
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COMMERCIAL FISHING 09 019.JPG
Height above water line
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A few things are very important. Mounting the unit high in on the stern to prevent submerssion is one of them. The cover is necessary to prevent cold water from cracking the block and to insulate from noise. The bottom of the box has a light stainless plate with a few holes for drainage and an oversized hole for the exhaust from the muffler. This is an air-cooled engine, so plenty of venting was necessary to prevent a complete meltdown. We installed a blower to be Coast Guard compliant. The ability to open the cover on a warm day is a must. The ability to easily remove the cover is a necessary for quick access in the event of trouble. I cannot stress the importance of purchasing the unit with electric start! The electric start is remounted to be accessible from the top. The muffler is wrapped in a heat shielding cloth and tied with stainless wire. This also seemed to reduce some of the noise. The muffler was built to have a large expansion chamber and could be improved Iamb sure through the use of baffles, but it really works quite well as it is. The bracket was made from aluminum and the cover from stainless steel. The box is fully insulated with sound proofing on the inside.

We tried using a pressurized fuel system in order to eliminate the need to fill the tank 2 to 3 times per day. The carb is designed with a gravity feed and any pressure including 1/2 psi was too much. We went back to gravity and a simple system that quickly fills the tank. The motor is mounted on a vibration reduction system in addition to the stock vibration reduction mounts and no vibration in the boat could be felt when it was running.

Air filters seemed to be the most replaced part during the season and aside from some carb cleaner, oil and a spark plug, that was all the maintenance we needed. I hope this helps and may God bless your fishing. Let me know if you need anything further.
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Re: Outboard motor vs. inboard hydralics

Postby fish head » Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:42 pm

that is awesome . Where is your hydralic tank at ? That looks way more functional that what i had in mind , thank you for the input and pics .
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Re: Outboard motor vs. inboard hydralics

Postby SilverT » Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:02 pm

Thanks! The hydraulic tank was removed from the unit and placed inside the boat on the transom at an elevation higher than the pump. There just wasn't enough room inside the box on the back. The tank is only about 12"x8"x8", if I remember correctly, so you should be able to find a place for it.

I should also mention that if you are going to get the electric start unit, you will need to get isolation hydraulic hoses because the standard hoses will ground your gurdies out to the ground on the 5.5 hp. If you don't use the isolation hoses, your cables will register a big 0.0V when you test them, which I can testify is very disappointing. I just added a 1' long hose for each line and it solved the problem.
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Re: Outboard motor vs. inboard hydralics

Postby Hotwire » Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:26 pm

Fishhead,
You might want to consider the system doryfisherman explains on page 4, "Outboard Motor Hydraulics"
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Re: Outboard motor vs. inboard hydralics

Postby fish head » Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:28 am

hotwire do you or doryman have any pics of this set up ? thanks fish head
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Re: Outboard motor vs. inboard hydralics

Postby Hotwire » Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:15 pm

Fishhead,
I don't have any pictures of this setup. I do know that most of the Oregon dory boats, powered with outboards, use this system. You may want to contact Terry Learned who builds dories in Pacific City, Oregon. He may have the answers you are looking for or direct you to someone that uses this system.
Good Fishing, Hotwire
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Re: Outboard motor vs. inboard hydralics

Postby actionalaska » Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:14 am

Hello,
I thought that I would offer up my two cents on your thread about inboard vs. outboard hydraulics. UNSOLICITED ADVICE HERE FREE OF CHARGE! :D Forgive me if I get a bit preachy and long winded, but here goes. I have a 27foot sea sport that I made into a power troller. It's on this site for sale if you want to take a couple of peeks at the pictures to get an idea of my installation. My intent with this reply is to save you some headache and steer you clear of getting too elaborate with retrofitting a "non troller" style boat with gear that makes it a power troller. I learned all this stuff the hard way, probably because I was in too big of a hurry to ask if anyone had already done what I was about to try. Knowing that each power troller is a custom setup to a certain extent, try to keep from becoming too elaborate with the components that make your installation come together. LIke the pumps, brackets, motors, connectors etc. Look at what common design features are present in most other boats in your size range and try to figure out why they are like that. This helps when deciding where to put stuff on your boat when it's time to put the rigging together, like the halyards, blocks, stays etc. One thing I would suggest on spending some extra money on is quick releases for the hydraulic supply and return lines to your gurdies. That makes your "weekend warrior sportfishing boat" able to be used as a non troller without a whole bunch of hand tool involved deconstruction to the commercial setup. The number one thing that I would recommend no matter what components you decide to use is this: use materials that are much beefier than you think you need. This makes your rigging extremely strong without a whole bunch of bracing and triangulation. It makes the installation look cleaner and better, and makes for less labor when it's being fabricated, which is ultimately cheaper in this age of "cheap" materials and expensive labor. For instance, use thick walled pipe, and make it bigger diameter than you think you need. I would also suggest solid forestays on your poles so you don't need to run cable stays fore and aft to keep the poles where they are supposed to be, this Keeps your smaller boat less cluttered at the back deck. As for the motors and pumps of the system, It's a real bonus to be able to go to any small town hardware store and get what you need off the shelf to keep your operation fishing. IF you need to wait for the custom fab shop that built your rig to come up with another complicated bracket, or custom part, especially when the first one is in pieces or laying on the ocean floor, you are running the risk of being broken down for an extended period of time. The outboard mounted hydraulic motor sounds really convenient, until it breaks. There just isn't enough room to install a pump inside an outboard cowling so you need to cut a hole up on the top near the flywheel making the cowling prone to leaking and then corroding your motor. This also means that you need a motor with a flywheel on top, which some manufacturers don't do anymore in certain horse power ranges. Because the top mounted flywheel is the most common way to attach a hydraulic motor to an outboard The installation needs to be Extremely precise. The machining in the bracket needs to be done to the same tolerances that the crank shaft, journals, and main bearings are machined to, If the machining in you bracket is sloppier than that in your motor,the installation will probably end up destroying your outboard by taking out the main bearings, and unfortunately, no manufacturer mass produces brackets or parts to support an installation like that, so it would have to be a custom part. You would also need to figure out a way to disconnect the motor for running, because an outboard runs at way too high of an RPM to keep the pump connected and turning at running speeds. I was looking at electric motors too when I converted from hand troll to power, and what I found out by talking to some electric motor guys is that the technology is available because of the electric car craze, but it's way to expensive to be practical at this point to get a motor, battery and charging system that will handle the duty cycle of an installation like power trolling. Not to mention the maintenance needed on the electrical side from being installed on a boat! You would also run into a charging problem on long summer days of low RPM idle with running the gear up and down a whole bunch. I think you are going the right direction with the Honda Power Pack, every coastal town on the pacific from Kodiak to San Diego has Honda motor parts, and usually those power packs have a hydraulic pump on them that is WAY overkill for the power that the motor can put out. But the best part about the power pack pony motor is that the technology is available, it's proven, and it's affordable. I'd think twice about the swim step stern installation of the power like the one pictured on your thread. I have an offset mounted kicker on the stern of my boat, and I've been tempted more than once to cut it off when I'm out fishing because of how much it's in the way. If you can find a reasonable spot that works for the power pack on top of the boat, or up front on the bow, or somewhere on the deck that is out of the way, that's where I would put it. The more stuff that is hanging off the back of the boat, the more stuff there is to consider when setting and pulling gear, even off towards the center of the boat, you would be surprised how much things get in the way. I would also imagine that a stern mounted power pack would be extremely prone to taking an occasional saltwater bath because of the holes needed in the box to get air in and exhaust out. I would think the stern mount would make the pack especially prone to getting wet in a following sea with some weight on the boat. Maybe ask the guy that has that installation and see what he says about that issue. Take into consideration whether or not his boat has been used in conditions that you expect to be out in. If you are are "fairweather" fisherman (no disrespect intended) the sternmount might be the way to go. If you expect to be fishing in some inclement weather, you might want to think about the way your boat will handle the conditions with ice and fish on board, and then decide where the driest place will be. One other thing you might want to look into is getting a set of gurdies like I have pictured with this post, Warren Junes LTD in Oregon can put them together for you using an Eaton Motor, and either a metal or nylon spool that they build. I bought mine a couple of years ago for about $800.00 per copy, the price changes based on metal or nylon spool, motor mounted valves or remote,bracket material and how elaborate your mounting bracket needs to be. I used the nylon spools so I didn't need to isolate the gurdy. I have an extra spool on board just in case I break one, but they have proven to be really beefy. I know of only four of these gurdies being used, but between all four there are 3 seasons of use on one set, and 2 seasons on the other with ZERO problems. They are direct drive so power up and power down, Much more simple than traditional which I think is better. I can drag 60lb leads with line loads of cohos on flashers in 40 fathoms and not have any slipping, or unwanted paying out of line when I stop the motor to land a fish during hauling. The downside is that they would be tough to retrieve if you ever lose hydraulic power. I haven't had the need to experience that yet so I don't have any bad things to say about these gurdies. They are also usually a whole bunch cheaper than buying a used set of 2 or 3 spool traditional style gurdies. Junes can set these up with remote valves, or pancake valves like I have. Just a few tips that I learned the hard way, good luck with your installation, I'm sure that you will be happy with a small power troller, I find mine just as productive as the big boys some of the time with much less operating cost. They are so much more maneuverable than a big boat and are really great for getting to a bite in a big hurry. Really nice when you pull up to the fuel dock too.
Hope this helps.
Attachments
IMG_1835.JPG
Gurdy mounted directly to davit, with quick releases for easy removal. Davit slides into gunnel mounted socket and is easily removable. Hole drilled through both davit and socket with removable pin inserted to keep davit from rotating when installed.
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Re: Outboard motor vs. inboard hydralics

Postby fish head » Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:37 pm

thank you to everybody for the help and input . I bought a 22' dory . after trying to fix it up , I came across too much dry rot to fix it . so I am in the process of having a 24' boat with a house made out of alum. I have the same guirdies that you have pictured but they are 2 spools . I am probably going to go with honda power pack . just not sure where I am going to mount it just yet . thank you to all for the great help . fish head
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Re: Outboard motor vs. inboard hydralics

Postby actionalaska » Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:21 pm

Two spool Junes gurdies? I didnt' know that they were available, once again I charge off in a direction without all the proper information. Is there a clutch and brake system? How 'bout a picture of them
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Re: Outboard motor vs. inboard hydralics

Postby SilverT » Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:11 pm

Fish head,

Great to hear about your boat and new equipment. I think setting the boat up was almost as fun as going. Also, Actionalaska raises some really great points.

The boat the power pack is mounted on is 25 feet long. We fished in some nasty weather this year and were only concerned for the unit once. The mounting height is OK (so far). The holes in the bottom of the cover are small and are really just small gaps between the aluminum and stainless, excluding the exhaust. They seemed to allow little water in, while draining very quickly. The engine will get salt water on it if mounted on the stern. That's a guarantee.

As far as things being in the way of landing fish, I too would have liked to have cut off the engines several times. However, pulling the gear on the side of the honda pack was less of a burden than the other side because we worked to eliminate grabby edges on the cover by bending the stainless.

We considered the bow, skip top, back deck and stern for mounting options. Exhaust, noise, refueling, space, starting and stopping were the factors we considered when we made our decision. We were not sorry with our choice, but, if we would have had more room on the bow, we would have given it more consideration.

Best of success to you!
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Re: Outboard motor vs. inboard hydralics

Postby fish head » Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:17 am

I will take some pics this weekend , hopefully I can figure out how to post them . I am planning on using them and the davits off my old dory . guirdies have seperate motors , no sure if this helps ? I am trying to set this new boat up to sport fish and comm. fish . Silver T what did you pay for your power pack , I cant seem to find it online ? Thank you guy's , you guy's have taken some off the headache away from trying to figure out how to set this new boat up . thank you to all fish head :D
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Re: Outboard motor vs. inboard hydralics

Postby SilverT » Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:17 pm

fish head,

As I remember, the cost of a 5.5 hp honda hydraulic pump unit was $1700 for electric start and $1400 for manual start. I'm looking forward to seeing some pictures!
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Re: Outboard motor vs. inboard hydralics

Postby doryman » Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:05 pm

Like someone else mentioned I posted on this awhile back in "Outboard Powered Hydraulics" on how to set up a reliable system. To clarify a little better after re-reading my post- The pump used is the VTM42 Vickers pump. It is actually a power steering pump I think for a tractor but works great for powering gurdies. After setting up and troubleshooting 4 of these systems from scratch I can say that this is by far the best way to go. DO NOT GO WITH THE POWER PACK. Everyone who has one learns to hate it. With my setup it is direct drive. I never have any problems with my hydraulics. Again, you need a very good machinist to make the adapter to bolt the Lovejoy coupler to the flywheel. It has to run true, mine has less than .001 of runout. Depding on gurdy type I have used 1.5-6 gallon rings in the pumps. If you have any questions please feel free to PM me. By the way, I do have lots of parts for the direct drive type gurdys and 3 complete ones for sale. Turnbull Marine in Eugene, Oregon is still making direct drive gurdies, which have Epoxy coated motors, variable speed valves, and tough mounts. They are very reasonably priced when I talked to them last.
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Re: Outboard motor vs. inboard hydralics

Postby fish head » Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:45 am

doryman sent you a pm please give me call thank you fish head
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Re: Outboard motor vs. inboard hydralics

Postby actionalaska » Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:10 am

Hi there Doryman,
I was hoping that you would put some contact info on this thread. The smaller powertroller retrofit is starting to become quite a popular project it seems in the Alaskan trolling scene. I have not seen your type of installation ever while out fishing here in the north country, and it would be pretty cool to see that change. I would bet that you would have more than a couple of fisherman up here try the outboard mounted hydraulic systems if they knew that it was available. It's just not a common answer around here to the small boat hydraulic system problem. I think that there would be a big demand for outboard mounted hydraulics especially among the sportsmen and subsistence users around Southeast AK. I would like to twist your ear a bit if you are willing to educate myself a bit about this.
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Re: Outboard motor vs. inboard hydralics

Postby doryman » Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:09 pm

Now that I have time I will give some more input on this outboard mount hydraulic question. Actionalaska brought up some good points on the installation needing to be precise. That is critical. I have a guy here in Oregon who did the last one of these for my friend and he kept the blueprints. If enough folks are interested I will gladly pass his contact info. It is set up for a Suzuki 115 4 stroke which is what most of the commercial dories are running nowdays in Oregon. I would have do say that this setup is very clean and reliable. I ran the last one on my 70hp for 10 years. This is really a simple design, dories have been using this system since the early 70's, many were one-off designs but a few companies offered bolt on kits for the old 2 strokers. Also yes it is possible to keep the pump hooked up all the time. My dad and several others in his group ran with their pumps coupled with one of the sprocket and plastic chains, rather than the Lovejoy coupler we all use now, permanently to the flywheel and opened the flow control when running. These guys ran it that way for 20 years no problems. They would buy a spare cowling cut off the top and fiberglass them together and run the lines out of the housing on the bottom through grommets. It worked but I wouldn't do it now. Now we just use a Lovejoy coupler. One mounted to a machined aluminum block that bolts to factory holes in the flywheel. The other side mounted to the shaft on the Vickers pump. Then a steel plate for the pump to bolt on to with a pin welded on the other end. That pin fits down into a pipe of slightly larger diameter bolted to the engine block. Simple as that. Also mentioned was water leak problems if you have the pump on a removable bracket on top of the cowling. Last year when I repowered I found the ultimate solution. I used a 4" Tempo Marine threaded plastic deck plate cap extended slightly with a piece of 4" ABS pipe which fits perfectly onto the deck plate flange. I anchored it with small SS machine bolts and used black silicone to seal top and bottom. It looks so good several people have asked if it is a factory setup. To seal the small pipe that the pump bracket fits into where it penetrates the cowling, a 350 chevy PCV valve grommet fits perfectly, I drilled the right size hole and popped it in to the groove that would normally fit tight on the chevy valvecover. Completely watertight. One other caution is once you make sure everything is aligned and tested take out all the bolts on your flywheel coupler and bracket and add Blue Loctite, ask me how I know.

Out of the 5 guys in my radio group who really fish hard, two of us have the outboard mounted hydraulics, two have a power pack and wish they had outboard mounted and are always climbing in my boat asking how to do it, and one has an I/O and wished he had an outboard. Most common complaints by the power pack guys: Noooiiiiiissssseeeee, these thing are annoying to listen to all day. My boat is peaceful and not putting off weird vibrations from the powerpack. Mufflers rusting off, pulling and pulling on them trying to get them to start. Shutting them on and off constantly when not running gear. We have lots of crab gear down here and whenever you drive on to a pot you have to run up and start cranking on the powerpack. I reach over and start my gear up.

Yes, these are a kind of one-off deal. Yes they are extremely reliable, there is nothing to go wrong. Don't let the critics scare you, it can be done with careful machine work and planning.
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Re: Outboard motor vs. inboard hydralics

Postby SilverT » Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:11 pm

Doryman,

Thanks for clarifying the longevity an outboard mounted with the hydraulic system, as that was one of my biggest concerns. Ten years is a good run on an outboard that works that hard. You are right about the noise, although I think you cut the word a little short. However, the shroud and custom muffler helped a lot. I don't know what it will do to the longevity of the 5.5hp, as it is air-cooled, but I would imagine it will cut its life a tad short.

Regarding the contact information, when I was setting up, I wanted to talk to anyone who knew anything about small boat hydraulics and I'm just as interested now. I had a hard time finding any information about outboard powered hydraulics. You have done a good job describing the system. I know a couple of people who are really curious about it and a picture is worth a thousand words. I know it can be a little cumbersome to post a pic, but a couple of good shots posted would be a tremendous favor to those considering a new setup and to those who may be looking at something else.

Thanks again,

SilverT
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