Bad day

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lone eagle
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Bad day

Post by lone eagle »

004.jpg
This is the fourth collision out of my home port so far this year, usually just broken poles if you're fortunate. Plenty of close calls too.
Kelper
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Re: Bad day

Post by Kelper »

Wow, that's going to leave a mark. Was that a troller on troller crash? Sounds like it was combat fishing off of Cape Edgecomb in Alaska this year with the charter boats.
lone eagle
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Re: Bad day

Post by lone eagle »

Two trollers ,in heavy fog I believe, out on the tuna grounds so probably travelling at speed if they were still fishing...I haven't caught the whole story yet. But I've had close calls myself these past two years, and two boats out of my 'group' have lost poles.
Salty
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Re: Bad day

Post by Salty »

Had my first collision while salmon trolling this summer. Clear day off Kruzoff, fishing kings and coho in 60 plus fathoms with 50 out. Starboard on beach, outside most of fleet. Didn't see him until all I saw was his wheelhouse through my windows. Took down my port bowpole stays and wiped out his port side. Backed off and got the bow pole lashed up. Ran gear and found 10 coho and 10 kings on it. Fished the day out, a good one. Removed bow poles and was set to go next day. Three of us on my boat were all looking and somehow missed him.
Short and very cordial radio conversation after recovering. Apologies all around and checking to see that no one was hurt or assistance needed. My son tacked my way if I needed help and it led him right into the best fishing.
On an additional note. Last year I set up a VIS receiver so I could see the vessels over 60 feet broadcasting their position. I liked it so much that I installed a transmitter this year so they could see me. Been super for communicating with cruise ships, tugs, and tenders. I also note that several other trollers including the New Day, Ocean Oasis, and a couple more are also putting out their position. I have a switch so I can run in stealth mode if I choose. So far I have not felt the need to do that. I wish we were all broadcasting, particularly the charter fleet, so we could all better avoid collisions. It also immediately makes clear whether the other vessels broadcasting are running the same edge, a loran line, or whatever and you can easily plan your course according.
Drew
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Re: Bad day

Post by Drew »

I don't see what good that would do for charter boats when they are intentionally anchoring in front of trollers.
SilverT
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Re: Bad day

Post by SilverT »

Lone Eagle, thanks for posting the pic and thanks for posting that story Salty. It's good to see that something like that doesn't have to end poorly based on the character of those involved. That sure beats the story of the troller who hit the throttle when he got tangled with another boat in a tight drag. If the story is true, it would be one of the saddest exhibitions of immaturity on the water that I've heard to date (beside my own). I also liked that you finished out the day. Cool system and I'm all for it, but I doubt I would ever need stealth mode. It sounds expensive.

Regarding the charters it would be nice to know where they are. I've had one ornery captain who appeared to anchor right in front of us. But, I've witnessed more arrogance & hostility from trollers and crabbers in 40 years of fishing than I have from sport boats, private and charter combined. And it makes some sense. Charter fishermen have to interact with people on a daily basis. It's their job. The commercial fishing industry seems to attract a fair number who have difficulty playing nicely and thinking of others. Perhaps that's part of the reason they are often alone, in a boat, at sea. Some of the people I have respected the most for their fishing abilities over the years have appeared short on character and manners.

One of my boys who has spent several years on a troller took a job on a charter this year. He told me a story about them being on anchor one day when a client asked what a troller was doing that appeared to be headed right for them. My son was explaining the fishery when he realized the troller hadn't seen them. About that time, they both heard the deckhand on the troller alert his captain to their potential problem. The captain looked up from his work in the back, cussed in their direction, didn't change anything and said something like, "Just get back to work. Don't look at them." The troller's captain cursed some more and said a few more nasty things to the deckhand about them as they passed close by. They heard every word well, as sound carries over water and with the engines shut off. My son said it was fairly amusing (to him).

But it's a pathetic public image for the trolling industry. Why would any of the six clients on that boat recommend purchasing troll caught salmon to their friends in the lower 48? I asked if they ever anchored in front of a troller on purpose and he said, "Not our boat. Our captain wouldn't do that."

I cannot stand the entitled attitude of many commercial fishermen and I saw a lot of it this year. And "reality" TV hasn't helped the younger fishermen with its glorification of juvenile behavior that's fun to watch on TV and disgusting to witness in person. It seems that young folks watch the show and are convinced that if they aren't being a self-centered jerk or speaking four coherent words without cursing, then they just aren't a man or woman. I find that when I listen to adults acting the same way, it's hard not to wonder if they are insecure, if they really believe what they are telling me or if they are just trying to convince themselves. A hard working man or woman with self-control in critical situations as Salty described above will always have more of my respect than anyone who lets fly the stream of cursing and useless rage in stressful, dangerous or miserable situations.

It is annoying when someone sets down right in front on a tack, but fishermen, like dogs are perhaps sometimes mean because they've been mistreated. If I were a charter operator it would be much more difficult for me to choose the next day to avoid anchoring in the drag after an experience like that. So if they had the system and they couldn't resist the temptation at least everyone would know they were there in the fog and that would be a real plus.

Trollers will always have far more control over what they do, value and glorify than they have over any other group, My suggestion is that trollers work harder at changing troller's deficiencies than they do at changing other groups. My son spent a summer defending trollers to a group who was hard-pressed to believe much of what he said based on their own negative experiences with trollers. I would like that not to be the case.

I hope you all had a great season,

Lane
Kelper
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Re: Bad day

Post by Kelper »

Difficult subject and I’d have hoped that the bad blood between comm fish and charters would get a bit better once the CHP and CSP went through. Unfortunately it appears it’s just heating up. Communication is the key in keeping everybody safe. As soon as we have somebody killed with a collision we’ll have the government stepping in to solve our problems, and I don’t think anybody wants more regulations.
On the subject of anchoring, most charter boats are now going to anchor. Fortunately most of the boats around Noyes aren’t equipped to anchor, so I don’t think it’ll catch on down here. I’m 1 of 2 boats that anchors, but I avoid doing it when a lot of trollers are around. But, it’s a much more efficient way for them to fish for salmon and halibut, and that’s why we are doing it. We are reasonable people and if asked nicely, most charter boats will probably give up anchoring for that first week of July. You need to recognize that it’s tough for charter boats to “stay out of the way” with the sheer amount of trollers that work certain areas in the derby opening in July. Drags seem to be widening by the year and it’s impossible to predict what trollers are going to do. Just when you think you have a spot that a troller isn’t pointed at you, one is. I can’t imagine anchoring intentionally in front of a troller, or even starting a drift in front of one. Very stressful with a troller bearing down on you on autopilot, and you don’t know if the guy sees you, is in the hold, or is busy in the pit. I can’t stress enough that on a chaotic derby style opening, it’s not as easy as you’d think it is to stay out of the way. July 1-3 is certainly not my favorite time of the summer. Not sure what those charter guys are thinking who are tossing out anchors in front of trollers. They need to be dealt with.
One thing I’d really like the trollers to think about is supporting legalizing party fishing for sport boats. Let the sport boats get in there, get what they need to get, and get out. The less time they spend in the drag the better, IMO. The charters could strongly be encouraged to keep the first 4-6 kings they hook, and move out of the area for bottom fish. I’m sure most would respect that and not sit there and sort king salmon. But, when they are legally forced to get every angler to hook their limit, it increases the time they must spend in the drag.
Trnaround
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Re: Bad day

Post by Trnaround »

Ya a collision at sea will ruin your day. Had a close call this year in the fog fishing a 20fth edge, starboard pole on the beach. One boat got too far inside trying to get into the sweet spot (their port pole on the beach) and couldn't get back out without crossing oncoming traffic. Just missed T boning him with full reverse and there was a boat following me close as well. Luckily no collisions. Not good. Great comments in this thread. I sure don't like the anchoring charter boats but it isn't that hard to steer around them actually sometimes they provide a nice visual landmark. Thing is there is a lot of water to fish out there and most of the charter boats are close to town usually an hour run for them so if you fish in those waters you are likely to have to deal with it. What is annoying to most trollers is the fact that the charter fleet gets to fish these waters (outside the surf line) unimpeded all year but they can't bring themselves to move over for 12 to 14 days. Why not instead of anchoring, troll for those few days. Charter boats are much more maneuverable than a troller with 4 lines down and not only would it be safer, everyone would get a fair chance. Just a thought. Personally I like to fish far enough away from town that it isn't an issue, makes for a better day and usually catch more fish. Hope you all did well this year.
Salty
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Re: Bad day

Post by Salty »

Great comments guys, thx.
Drew
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Re: Bad day

Post by Drew »

Silver T, grumpy trollers or not, a charter captain's first responsibility is ensuring the safety of their clients. Anchoring at the cape when there's 100 trollers there is irresponsible whether they do it right in front of a troller or a mile ahead. It seems like a lot of the charter captains don't have enough respect for what 30,000+ pounds of mass colliding with them would do. It's like driving around semi trucks, whether you have right of way or not, you should assume that the truck driver can't see you.
SilverT
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Re: Bad day

Post by SilverT »

Thanks Drew,

Absolutely agreed that safety is first and that you should assume folks don't see you and I'm also glad you bring up respect. I''d like to add that the captain of the 30k+ pound vessel underway has quite a bit of responsibility for the safety of those six passengers. If they feel their course is unsafe, they should adjust. I'm confident I know how an investigation of a collision of a moving vessel with a stationary vessel will pan out in most cases.

Professional captains "respect" vessels of all sizes. They respect their right to navigate according to law. Commercial fishermen often work size into their analysis of their navigation choices. And with it comes a lot of chancy, unprofessional, entitled boat operation.

It appears that some commercials don't want charters free-drifting at the cape either (as long as they are fishing there that day). Do they want them trolling? Yes, but just not around them. The common troller's solution might be for charters to just leave because it would really be safer for everyone. It's the "Our gang is in town and we are bigger and have a moral reason to be here, so move" attitude. The collective root of navigation issues like this appear to be greed, not safety.

I was considering how the cruise ship and tug operators feel when 100+ little 30,000+ pound trollers plug up Eastern Channel on a chum bite. I wonder if standing atop that high bridge he or she is thinking, "apparently, these captains just don't have any respect for what this vessel will do to them in a collision. They shouldn't be here." I'm sure she would like them to be somewhere else, but instead, she gets on the radio, politely lets them know he's navigating the channel and requests their help, professionally. And respect is what she gets and everyone moves to the side. Interesting though, she gives respect even to small boats.

I like choices, not laws and I believe that trollers and charter operators can work together to solve many of these issues with the right mix of professionalism, consideration and cooperation. If we succeed in arranging an agreement where charter operators fish in a slightly different location during peak fishing times it will be a result of some responsible, interaction between leaders in both fisheries. And if they would agree to such an arrangement, then trollers should be willing to support incentives, such as full troller support of sport/charter retention rules as mentioned above. And if you want charter fishermen to work with trollers then respect and expression of it is a critical tool in the path to success.

If I were a charter operator, I probably wouldn't choose to anchor in that situation, but if I did, in my view the greater responsibility would be on the troller to choose not to hit me. And, I would add that I be fully within my rights and I might argue that when you purchased your semi license (I like that analogy), no one told you what pavement you had to choose to drive. Pedestrians, delivery people, cyclist, motorcycles, other semi's and military convoys had all been using the pavement you chose long before you were born or purchased the license. It was their understanding that you were capable of making safe choices and understood how the pavement can be legally used prior to making the purchase. It's a choice what streets we drive, and the primary driving force behind our choice to drive and where we do it is money.

Trollers don't have a morally superior reason over any other fisherman to be where we choose to fish. Trollers shouldn't make choices in interactions with other fishermen while leaning on the belief that they do. Holding to that position appears disrespectful and unreasonable from the outside and it consequently weakens trollers collective negotiating power.

Good suggestions all,

Lane
Carol W
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Re: Bad day

Post by Carol W »

This is a great discussion as a long time troller who roams the entire coast I can say that drags up and down the coast have become much more congested, however as we all know there are a hell of a lot places easier to fish than Kruzoff and the Cape in particular. That being said my own personal feelings about fishing the Cape is I am going to a battle zone and it is going to be a nightmare, and generally try to avoid the place. However I have hung out there from time to time and have had issues with boats in general, seems that it is almost like playing in the freeway with semi's and minicoopers and everybody doing something else. Charters anchor and some trollers are fishing close to beach some 30 fms and some at 40 and then there are guys like me that try to turn around going east short of the light to avoid the corner. Yeah it is a nightmare and some communication with charter fleet wouldn't hurt and patience on our part as trollers would also help and if we wouldn't all dive right back where we got last clatter without considering the other guy on the drag. I found lots of open water to fish this summer and caught fish in it, I find one of the benefits of all the charters climbing onto the Cape was there is a lot of water where I didn't see them. I do agree that as two fleets who want to share the same patch of ocean that we both are better off to sit down and try to come to some solution that doesn't involve regulatory agencies. And sad to say if you go to the cape well you know exactly what you are tacking into.
I will also say that I generally try to steer long tacks and pass port to port but sometimes @#$% happens I was 6 miles out fishing 2nd opener of Kings with a group of big heavy hitter freezers we all tacking a long tack and I happen to look up and saw a set of poles bearing down on me the other guy saw me at about the same time and I turned to port he turned starboard and we narrowly missed. We saw each other on the dock and both told the other we were sorry we didn't see each other. Neither was trying to t bone the other we had things happening and lost track. I never assume the other boat sees me, my boat is low and have been told I disappear in the swell, how ever I have learned over time if I find fish where I can do long tacks and try to stay consistent then others who fish around me know what I am going to do. Ultimately it is my responsibility to avoid collisions whether it be trollers charter boats or heaven forbid a rock.

Keep your Hand on it
Tom
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Re: Bad day

Post by Siskiyous »

I hear Peso II is out of the water and repairs are beginning. I gave her skipper a ride as he was walking back to his car. He was upset, but was not blaming anyone. Class act. Peso II had just got out of the yard and was looking first rate.
Salty
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Re: Bad day

Post by Salty »

Good discussion guys. It appears to me that a problem has developed with the charter fleet choosing to anchor in some long used popular troll drags in SE Alaska and then become upset when some trollers continue to try and work in the area. I know I was very cautious when working the cape area this year and had no entanglements or collisions with charter operators. But, I was verbally assaulted both over the water and on the radio by some guides. Having trolled for my entire life, often in tight and competitive situations, I understand both the reason and need for following both written and unwritten rules of the road and courtesy toward all other boaters.
Being a pioneer in the chum troll fishery I also understand that different fisheries and situations require both individual and fleet evolution on how to best optimize harvest and cooperation. Having been trolling with my father before we had a Fathometer I also understand how technology changes how fishermen look at ways to harvest fish.
A similar evolution is needed as trollers and charter fishing guides adapt to the new charter fishing practice of anchoring in large groups on the hot spots which are often right in the middle of the troll drag. I don't think trollers are going to give up working those spots and the charter fishing operations aren't going away or quit anchoring in traditional troll hotspots any time soon.
So, how do we solve this problem before people are hurt or resort to violence? My experience with helping solve fisheries issues is that recognition that "we have a problem" is the first step. I say we have a problem. What say you?
Kelper
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Re: Bad day

Post by Kelper »

I can see how trollers would be pissed that groups of charter boats were anchoring right in the drag. Don't get me wrong.

Do you think that 2014 was a unique year given the volume of kings off the Cape, and as a result the volume of boats all trying to catch those kings? Has this been a problem in the past, or was '14 the perfect storm for this problems to happen?

Sounds like the charter guys up there are a bit of a different "breed" than the ones I associate with down here.
Salty
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Re: Bad day

Post by Salty »

Great question Kelper. My thinking is that it is a combination of factors that made 2014 the biggest problem year.

1. There was unusually excellent fishing right off Cape Edgecumbe;
2. It is the closest, most fuel efficient spot for the guides to fish;
3. Other nearby areas to Sitka such as Biiorka, Shelikov, and Pt. Amelia were not as good this year;
5.sea lion problems off much of the coast concentrated both groups off the Cape where there is minimal Sea Lion problems for some reason;
6. The fuel efficient and highly productive method of anchoring and mooching for salmon, rockfish, and halibut by the charter fleet has become increasingly popular;

Will it get worse or better? Hard to say but I suspect anchoring and mooching in large groups on the hotspots is here to stay. The words we use for it in other fisheries is "grounds preemption". For the most part trollers are like Tom (Carol W) and prefer long tacks away from everybody else. So, most of us just leave the congested area. But, some are resistant to giving up drags they have spent many years learning and sharing. And even though most move on I don't think most trollers like the idea of being displaced. In short, I see the problem persisting.
Drew
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Re: Bad day

Post by Drew »

SilverT I think that you misunderstand me. All I'm saying is that I think it's negligent on charter captain's part to pass off the responsibility for the safety of their clients to somebody they don't know and who might even wish them ill will.
SilverT
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Re: Bad day

Post by SilverT »

Thanks Drew,

I didn't spend much text conveying that I agree. From a trollers perspective it is truly hideous to have a fleet park in the middle of a drag and I don't think it is safe. I am well aware of what a headache it causes trollers not knowing if a vessel is moving. It's annoying to change course to avoid a boat that appears to be changing direction, only to find that they are swinging on anchor. It's annoying being pushed outside because another boat just pulled up and blocked what little room you had to scoot inside. Those are just a few. I completely agree from the trollers perspective and I did use your comments to jump further down a line of thinking than the comments warrant. For those who are further down the line, I'm calling the attitude what it is.

And thanks for posting again. I appreciate folks who don't give up and continue to engage, particularly on important topics. And I really appreciate the few folks who have the guts and take the time to post thoughts and opinions on the forum in spite of what it costs them socially and financially,regardless of whether they agree with various opinions. I am confident there are a lot of trollers who read this forum on a regular basis and have good ideas but are petrified to post because they are worried one or two loudmouths in their code group will turn their buddies against them and the next time they won't get called for the big bite. Several trollers who have something to lose by posting here still post. They care more about the success of the industry, their community and what they leave for the next generation than their own pocket book and I have a lot of respect for that. Garrett was one of those and I miss his posting.

Salty, I sure thought you summed things up well. I hadn't really thought of the unwritten rules, many of which you and others have taken the time to write on the forum. Those have saved me a lot of grief. And thanks for answering the questions.

I had a couple of thoughts on solutions from the troller's perspective:

1) Communication with lodge owners who run the most boats to determine how trollers can preserve drags while offering some benefit to their industry
2) Communication on the water as to general depth charters are anchoring / drifting
3) Communication encouraging tighter formations or linear formations along a fathom line to the best of charter ability during peak times
4) Communication to encourage use of VIS and setting an example through trollers use of the same

I'm sure there are better ideas out there.

Thanks again,

Lane
Salty
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Re: Bad day

Post by Salty »

Thx Lane and all. Good discussion, good ideas.
I am often contacted by readers of this site who would never post. That is okay, I never sing but I sure enjoy listening to others sing.
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Re: Bad day

Post by pacific mariner »

I fished the cape this year quite a bit and feel its just getting worst as the years go by. Fished the cape a lot last year too. Cape to shelikof and back. This year one charter boat anchors and then a little while later there is 15 to 20 all spread out like a raft of sea otters. Can't really troll between because of risk of hooking up and have to go way outside. Lot of area that the trollers traditionally fished. What they need to do is limit the number of boats or licenses? I don't know much about the charter fleet but am wondering is there a cap on the amount of licenses and can one lodge have as many boats as they want. Some lodges have tons of boats. They let the charter fleet get way out of control before anything was done. The troll fleet has had a license cap for years.
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